Rules Suggestions- Shooting

JawRippa

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I like the idea of randomly distributing hits within a melee.
For every hit (or wound roll to encompass scattershot) first roll a dice to randomly determine who it hits out of the target and anyone within base-contact with the target.
That is a good deterrant not to shoot at engaged fighters. If you have a juve scrub next to goliath, you are not guaranteed that your 2+ hitting rapid fire plasma will not be entirely soaked by a juve... I like it.
 
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JayTee

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Jun 14, 2015
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I like that (That's pretty much how I've played for a while now), I'd just make sure to clarify that this would only apply to template/blast weapons if you don't hit all engaged fighters. Wouldn't make sense to drop a blast onto 2 engaged fighters and have 1 of them take both hits and the other walks away unscathed.
 
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Al_Weeks

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Dec 22, 2014
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I like that (That's pretty much how I've played for a while now), I'd just make sure to clarify that this would only apply to template/blast weapons if you don't hit all engaged fighters. Wouldn't make sense to drop a blast onto 2 engaged fighters and have 1 of them take both hits and the other walks away unscathed.
Just have blasts and templates hit everyone in the fight at least once I guess. Those arent the sort of weapons that your should really be using to 'save' your buddy from being eviscerated by some drugged up psycho with weaponized industrial equipment. A sniper rifle maybe (hollywood style), but not a flame thrower.
 

Galtarr

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Mar 1, 2017
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Just have blasts and templates hit everyone in the fight at least once I guess. Those arent the sort of weapons that your should really be using to 'save' your buddy from being eviscerated by some drugged up psycho with weaponized industrial equipment. A sniper rifle maybe (hollywood style), but not a flame thrower.
Unless it's a tooled up psycho champ giving your Juve a beatdown then light em both up with a flamer is a fair plan in my experience...
 

Kiro The Avenger

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Apr 4, 2018
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I like that (That's pretty much how I've played for a while now), I'd just make sure to clarify that this would only apply to template/blast weapons if you don't hit all engaged fighters. Wouldn't make sense to drop a blast onto 2 engaged fighters and have 1 of them take both hits and the other walks away unscathed.
In the interest of keeping the rule simple, I'd just shrug and leave it.
Serves you right for trying to use a high explosive for precision work.

Maybe we could add something like for every 2 on the dice you exceed your to-hit by, you can influence one dice one number.
So for example, if you need a 3+ to-hit and you roll a 5, you could turn the 3 on the hit-distribution dice into a 4.
Although that may be a little too complex and difficult to word succinctly and clearly?
 

JawRippa

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Again I'll post here the editor's suggestions from the rules compilation on Discord, found here;
Document: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ocdfxcvb399ind7/NCR.pdf?dl=0
Discord: https://discord.gg/PfJgVD8
I've put my own comments in [square brackets] after each point.
...
Shooting a target that moved 10" or more this round incurs a -1 to hit
[I prefer double-moving granting a -1 to hit]
We've tried a flat -1 to hit for running fighters. A total of -3 to hit fighters in heavy cover seemed to be way too brutal for common BS4+ fighters.
I've actually forgot to mention a pretty important thing that we've been testing for a while; we run it like this:
If a fighter makes 2 moves during their activation, they receive a "fleeting target" status (same as fast target). Shooting target with this status in the open incurs a -1 to hit. If such fighter is in partial cover, it is considered to be a full cover instead. Fleeting target status is lost at the beginning of fighter's activation or whenever fighter gets pinned, seriously injured or engaged.
Recently I've been thinking about giving "Fleeting target" to fighters who have consolidated. This way fighter who has just charged and killed someone is not as vulnerable to shooting.

With stray shots id make it only count for melee, the rest of the time its rules busy work that doesn't greatly add to the game and either penalises a player further for missing, or opens up abuse of the system.

That said, id change shooting into melee to be a simple "roll to hit, then roll to see which combatant you hit, 3+ its the opponent, 1-2 its your ally" (to represent the shooter trying not to hit their friend).
I'd say simply randomise whoever gets hit, so it is a 50-50 if it is 1vs1. 33% to hit your own is not much of a deterrent I think. What happens if you miss, do stray shots trigger?


Our solution to the Blast problem is that Blast Markers must be placed such that they cover the closest eligible target (So you can fanagle the template to avoid nuking your own dudes), or you must pass the normal Cool test to place them anywhere. So far it works decently though we're still nailing down how to handle CGC masks...
What happens if you fail Cool check and there are no visible targets? Can you attempt shooting at a spot again? What if there is a visible target - do you shoot at closest target?
Tbh there are so many additional rules we have to put on top of blasts, that I think it is easier to disallow targetting ground whatsoever.


I've always thought a universal -1 to BS for every model would do the game a world of good - its too easy to land shots, even in heavy cover, and rare/powerful weapons (like plasma guns!) are too easy to come by in the game, but I think that ship has largely sailed unless someone plans to rewrite all the House of... books.
...
The problem with that approach is that it only delays shooting dominance. Sooner or later some fighters will get to BS2+ through advancements or other means. What we need to do is to make it so BS2+ is not as impactful (but still useful obviously)
 
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TopsyKretts

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I've tried -1 hit modifier when targeted by ranged attacks for anyone making a charge action or more than a single move action. It worked excellent.
 

JawRippa

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You could make the condition for being a Fleeting target "has moved more than their Movement characteristic during their latest activation", to encompass both running and charging.
The thing is that Topsy has pointed out a while ago - nothing stops fighters from running back and forth to gain Fleeting target bonus while staying behind same piece of cover. I think rather than try to word it to disallow such a thing (not really overpowered to be honest), simply treat fighters who spent 2 actions for movement, but stayed put as if they are spending their entire activation preparing to duck or dodge from incomming shot. Good catch about charging - we actually give same status to charging fighters as well, I've just forgotten to list it. Obviously if you become engaged the status dissappears, but it serves as a consolidation prize if you didn't make it into close combat.
I've tried -1 hit modifier when targeted by ranged attacks for anyone making a charge action or more than a single move action. It worked excellent.
BS4+ fighters would be firing improbable shots at hard target unless they aim... That seems pretty harsh to be honest. Granted, I've only played 1 game where it Fleeting stacked with heavy cover resulting in -3 to hit, and my goliaths roflstomped my opponent, so my opinion might be skewed. My take on "Fleeting target"' has a side efect, it speeds up the game drastically: a running fighter is not entirely visible? Heavy cover it is, no fuss about how much of the target is visible to the shooter.
 

TopsyKretts

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The thing is that Topsy has pointed out a while ago - nothing stops fighters from running back and forth to gain Fleeting target bonus while staying behind same piece of cover. I think rather than try to word it to disallow such a thing (not really overpowered to be honest), simply treat fighters who spent 2 actions for movement, but stayed put as if they are spending their entire activation preparing to duck or dodge from incomming shot. Good catch about charging - we actually give same status to charging fighters as well, I've just forgotten to list it. Obviously if you become engaged the status dissappears, but it serves as a consolidation prize if you didn't make it into close combat.
I think you got the wrong focus here. The game desperately needs more mobility. Having silly chicken runs may be 'unfortunate', but it's not gonna break any eggs! I could do those silly things you examplify all day, but you are still winning every battle.
BS4+ fighters would be firing improbable shots at hard target unless they aim... That seems pretty harsh to be honest. Granted, I've only played 1 game where it Fleeting stacked with heavy cover resulting in -3 to hit, and my goliaths roflstomped my opponent, so my opinion might be skewed. My take on "Fleeting target"' has a side efect, it speeds up the game drastically: a running fighter is not entirely visible? Heavy cover it is, no fuss about how much of the target is visible to the shooter.
I'm all for speeding things up without having to look closely at how many % are obscured (and then waiting for the other player to do the same). Unfortunately on my boards, full cover is not all that common. I know I need more LOS blocking terrain and more scatter terrain, but at the moment I've only done most of the original GW plastics (and that is not good enough for providing cover).
 

JawRippa

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I think you got the wrong focus here. The game desperately needs more mobility. Having silly chicken runs may be 'unfortunate', but it's not gonna break any eggs! I could do those silly things you examplify all day, but you are still winning every battle.
Well, yeah, the game needs to promote mobility, that's why I'm agreeing that "running in one place" is not a bad thing.
I know I need more LOS blocking terrain and more scatter terrain, but at the moment I've only done most of the original GW plastics (and that is not good enough for providing cover).
From my experience thats how TLOS works: some terrain can be spaceous and take a lot of space on table, and be nice looking, all while providing little cover. Also not all groups of players have access to a lot of terrain. This is why I'm all for rules that provide opportunity to make cover more abstract.
 
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Al_Weeks

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Could the -1 modifier for moving fast (however it is worded) be worded as if the fighter is in the open they are counted as being in light cover and if they have light cover, they are counted as being in full cover.

That way it stops a -3 modifier being applied unless it's for other reasons (like weapon accuracy mods etc).

I like the idea. To me necromunda is about fire and manouver. Atm it's a bit too much fire and less manouver and this encourages more of the latter.
 

TopsyKretts

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From my experience thats how TLOS works: some terrain can be spaceous and take a lot of space on table, and be nice looking, all while providing little cover. Also not all groups of players have access to a lot of terrain. This is why I'm all for rules that provide opportunity to make cover more abstract.
Yeah I was really surprised that after building a bunch of that sector mechanicus / shadow war armageddon terrain, it offered fairly small amount of cover! Much less than expected. I only noticed this after playing on the finished terrain.
 

TopsyKretts

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Could the -1 modifier for moving fast (however it is worded) be worded as if the fighter is in the open they are counted as being in light cover and if they have light cover, they are counted as being in full cover.

That way it stops a -3 modifier being applied unless it's for other reasons (like weapon accuracy mods etc).

I like the idea. To me necromunda is about fire and manouver. Atm it's a bit too much fire and less manouver and this encourages more of the latter.
That is a good compromise. The question is, do we want or need a compromise here?
 

Al_Weeks

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That is a good compromise. The question is, do we want or need a compromise here?
I guess it's just another one for the mix. Although I've released that the way its worded it offers a bit of protection against blast and templates in the form of increased armour save, which we may it may not want (unless we change how they work, which we've discussed we might).
 
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ntw3001

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I have an old rule from an old house ruleset about blast templates, which I think would fit well. A blast weapon has to choose a target, which can be a model visible to any ally, and the weapon can be fired either directly into their mouth or at a location. The requirement is that the template must fully cover the target model. If a guy is standing behind a barricade in the middle of nowhere, you'll have to try and hit him. If there's a wall behind him, or you're in an elevated position, it's a lot easier to just mash a rocket into that wall or floor. This is informed by my experience playing as the Soldier in TF2.

I also had a little thought about how nice it was to have full auto represented by the 'roll to hit for each shot' rule in the old game. Too strong maybe, but the current rule feels like it represents burst fire but not full auto. So my thought is that you get a separate roll to hit for each RF dice you roll. No change to plasma guns, a leg up for the unloved heavy stubber. If you spray and pray, *some* of those bullets probably ought to hit.
 
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Al_Weeks

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I have an old rule from an old house ruleset about blast templates, which I think would fit well. A blast weapon has to choose a target, which can be a model visible to any ally, and the weapon can be fired either directly into their mouth or at a location. The requirement is that the template must fully cover the target model. If a guy is standing behind a barricade in the middle of nowhere, you'll have to try and hit him. If there's a wall behind him, or you're in an elevated position, it's a lot easier to just mash a rocket into that wall or floor. This is informed by my experience playing as the Soldier in TF2.

I also had a little thought about how nice it was to have full auto represented by the 'roll to hit for each shot' rule in the old game. Too strong maybe, but the current rule feels like it represents burst fire but not full auto. So my thought is that you get a separate roll to hit for each RF dice you roll. No change to plasma guns, a leg up for the unloved heavy stubber. If you spray and pray, *some* of those bullets probably ought to hit.
Ok, that second idea might we worth considering.
So 1 rapid fire dice, equals 1 to hit roll and if it hits you achieve the number of hits on the ammo dice.
So 2 rapid fire dice, equals 2 to hit roll and if it hits you achieve the number of hits on the ammo dice associated with that dice.

Only downside is you would need to roll each rapid fire dice and to hit roll separately, or have different colour dice.

However I do like it as a comprise. It does represent an increase in accuracy to rapid fire 2 weapons.

Might actually make the storm welder better (if still suicidal).

Rapid fire 2 or more weapons in the game are currently just:

Heavy Stubber
Heavy Bolter
Rak Gol Razor Gun
Storm Welder
Xenarch Death Arc (which is a close combat weapon and thus is weird anyway)
Twin Linked Heavy Stubber*
Twin Linked Heavy Las Carbine*

*The two have the twin linked rule allowing them to re roll any number of ammo dice, which implies after the to hit rolls, so that could be quite a powerful combo.

Anything that makes the iconic heavy stubber more appealing and see more play is good in my book, although I still think it's way over priced.

I guess its a slight buff to shooting overall, but with slight nerfs to blasts and templates being proposed it might open the way to some heavy stubbers seeing play.

It does make the HB even deadlier mind.
 
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