Rules suggestions - Weapons, Wargear and Traits

Al_Weeks

Gang Hero
Honored Tribesman
Dec 22, 2014
513
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Bristol
I guess that makes gas effective, but toxin still would need to get to the fleshy bits... Which there are not that many of left. Same with web.
Well that's what failing the armour save represents I guess, needle weapons certainly have decent AP, and all that meat is in the head/core of the Ambot.

They are T5 and have a 4+, so most toxin knifes are gonna have a hard time, the sword might have a little more luck.
 

JayTee

Ganger
Jun 14, 2015
142
267
63
Combi

The in-universe explanation for why Combi massively nerfs your ammo rolls is that they "often have less capacity for ammunition, and are prone to jamming and other minor issues". This is fine for most Combi-weapons, but I find the interaction with the one-shot Combi-grenade launcher really dissatisfying. I envisage a Combi-grenade launcher as a tube duct-taped to the side of a Bolter that can fire off a single grenade, so I struggle to reconcile this with why doing this suddenly makes my Bolter prone to running out of Ammo/jamming. I've also found pretty much no-one ever uses the Combi-grenade launcher as the penalty outweighs the vague utility of a single-shot Frag grenade.

We've created an Auxiliary trait which goes with the secondary grenade launcher, and basically nullifies the Combi trait on the primary, as well as allowing all grenades (Except Stun rounds and Plasma) to be loaded into these one-shot grenade launchers. Bit like how Redemptionists could grab one-shot Exterminators.

So far it has been fun and we've actually had some people take some interesting Combi-grenade launchers (Combi-krak obviously has been popular, as has Combi-Flash). It does often mean your "Special" weapon is a vanilla boltgun/lasgun/autogun so is a fairly decent trade-off.

The "new" Combi-grenade in HoChains that doesn't have One shot is ignored as a terrible mistake.
 
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JayTee

Ganger
Jun 14, 2015
142
267
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That was something else that came up in one of our regular "moan about things in the game" sessions. I can't remember off-hand why we didn't try it, and it's worth noting that due to Covid all we've managed since ~February is skirmish matches irregularly, so our usual test regime is entirely out the window. Still, I quite like the idea of it :)
 

Spenetrator

Gang Champion
Honored Tribesman
Apr 2, 2018
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York, UK
Speaking of attachments - My own pet peeve mentioned pages ago is

'Long' rweapons have +1 to hit at long range.

  • With aiming that bonus becomes 2+
  • fast shot snipers can throw out two shots at long range at +1
  • Attaching a telescopic sight & aiming changes the bonus to +1 (?)

My proposal would be to flip the bonus from Long range to short range on long rifles, Needle long rifles, sniper rifes, and the Long Las (because surely something closer is always easier to hit)

This would mean:
  • Vanilla long weapons give No bonus at Long range (So fast shot/overseer'ed champs have to choose volume of shots or a bonus for aiming)
  • Thematically aiming and scopes with these weapons make sense.
  • Attaching a telescopic sight and aiming gives +2 (the same bonus as RAW vanilla long weapon so it's no more broken - but locks the +2 bonus behind a 'paywall' for the scope)
  • to effectively snipe at long range, fighters are forced to sacrifice movement to aim.
It's only a wee change but a thematic one - and mechanically it doesn't affect anything else except in the way we want. (limiting the volume of accurate shots)

What do we think?
 
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JayTee

Ganger
Jun 14, 2015
142
267
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This thread reminded me Ammo is a hot mess and we have multiple weapons that might be different but have the same name, along with weird wording in the BoPeril (Pg 42) that are meant to be applied to "any grenade launcher", and an Enforcer grenade launcher that might be the same as other grenade launchers except it is Basic not Special and now has a unique Stun round profile.
  • Can I apply a Focusing crystal to the Lasgun portion of a Lasgun/Plasma combi-weapon?
  • Can I apply a Hotshot las pack to the Lasgun portion of a Lasgun/Plasma combi-weapon?
  • How does the Hotshot las pack interact with Focusing crystal?
  • What about Gas shells in an Enforcer boltgun? How about Gas shells in a Warpstorm bolter? Or a Stormbolter?
  • How about Gunk bolts?
  • How about Plasma grenades in a Goliath Assault grenade launcher(s)? What about the Subjugation pattern grenade launcher?
  • What profile do I use for Stun rounds on the Subjugation pattern grenade launcher? The BoJ one, or the newer HoChains one?
I've got houseruled answers to all of the above, and I think some answers are obvious, but Ammo and various interactions has been a source of rules-lawyering and annoyance so general clarification and tidying would be welcome.
 

JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
1,069
1,380
133
Saint-Petersburg, Russia
@Spenetrator
Actually I think that Snipers should have a penalty at a short range, since it is unwieldy to use for a hip-firing. Maybe a separate trait, which gives a -1 to hit, if the target is closer than 9" to avoid remaking short/long ranges of rifles and long-las.
 
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Spenetrator

Gang Champion
Honored Tribesman
Apr 2, 2018
423
1,114
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York, UK
@Spenetrator
Actually I think that Snipers should have a at a short range, since it is unwieldy to use for a hip-firing. Maybe a separate trait, which gives a -1 to hit, if the target is closer than 9" to avoid remaking short/long ranges of rifles and long-las.

That's a decent idea as a long rifle's short range is 24" I had been wrestling with something similar but we left it out of our playtesting.
So you would implement the changes above and add a 'sniper' trait?
Worded something like: "shots taken without aiming at under 10" (because round numbers) incur a -1 to hit malus" (Even more shooting nerfs!for the win!) so the net result would be without aiming or sights:
+0 to hit up to 10"
+1 to hit up to 24"
+0 to hit up to 48"
 

TopsyKretts

Hive Guilder
Tribe Council
Dec 29, 2017
4,634
4,577
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Norway
My proposal would be to flip the bonus from Long range to short range on long rifles, Needle long rifles, sniper rifes, and the Long Las (because surely something closer is always easier to hit)
That's not the case for snipers. The long range modifier is specifically designed to emphasize the opposite. Targeting something in a distance is easier than targeting something closer. You can easily draw parallels to FPS games (Battlefield, Call of Duty etc) where you will experience the same.
 

TopsyKretts

Hive Guilder
Tribe Council
Dec 29, 2017
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Norway
That's a decent idea as a long rifle's short range is 24" I had been wrestling with something similar but we left it out of our playtesting.
So you would implement the changes above and add a 'sniper' trait?
Worded something like: "shots taken without aiming at under 10" (because round numbers) incur a -1 to hit malus" (Even more shooting nerfs!for the win!) so the net result would be without aiming or sights:
+0 to hit up to 10"
+1 to hit up to 24"
+0 to hit up to 48"
Way too complicated. Clunky. Not smooth. Not good for future proofing. New 'sniper' weapons may have different ranges. Not a fan of adding more traits on top of what we already got. Not a fan of adding a 3rd range on top of short/long. Not a fan of moving short/long accuracy modifiers from the weapon profile to the traits section.
 

Fireborn

Ganger
Sep 9, 2019
92
39
38
Festus
I have a question for everyone.

Cant Ogrens put photo goggles on there leader and camps.
my play group has been jsut putting any wargear on its fighters. anything that is non weapon. We realize that is wrong.
But now we are trying to find the line.

A Delaque Leader is equipped with flak armour. They may purchase any weapons or Wargear from the Delaque House List.

• During the course of a campaign, a Delaque Leader may be given additional weapons and Wargear purchased from this list, from the Trading Post and from the Black Market.
• A Delaque Leader has no restrictions upon the types of weapons they can take; all weapon types are available.

this for example. it could be interrupted that gangs can only use house wargear. but for some reason you can buy it for the trading post. but can buy any weapon. I can see it would keep gangs to a consistent to a flavor i guess.

also gets real restrictive for gangers and juves.

Seems wrong but let everyone buy anything seems wrong too.

What are the restrictions. this is word very poorly.
 

Spenetrator

Gang Champion
Honored Tribesman
Apr 2, 2018
423
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York, UK
Way too complicated. Clunky. Not smooth. Not good for future proofing. New 'sniper' weapons may have different ranges. Not a fan of adding more traits on top of what we already got. Not a fan of adding a 3rd range on top of short/long. Not a fan of moving short/long accuracy modifiers from the weapon profile to the traits section.

I maybe didn't make it clear but my initial suggestion is simply to flip the S+L bonus, this couldn't be less clunky.
and as suggested perhaps add some mechanism for reducing accuracy/preventing shots at very close range (not really adding a third range bracket, and other weapons range brackets wouldn't be affected at all) - I used the ranges on a long rifle merely as an example.

in relation to FPShooters, you're right, but you have to *aim* with the sniper to get that ease of hitting things in the distance, which would still be reflected in game by, well; aiming. RAW at the moment you can move, and shoot at +1 from 48" away with a un accessorised rifle, Aiming with the telescopic sight is exactly as accurate. That shouldn't be the case thematically, surely?

I'm happy to park it there - it's a pet peeve and I know there are bigger issues. :)
 
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Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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Sevres 92130 France
Cant Ogrens put photo goggles on there leader and camps.
my play group has been jsut putting any wargear on its fighters. anything that is non weapon. We realize that is wrong.
They can, just not at gang creation:
During the course of a campaign, an Ogryn Overboss may be given new Wargear purchased from this list or from the Trading Post and the Black Market

Those rules have changed in N20 (House of ____ books) compared to N18 and are now on a per fighter basis instead of per gang basis. Access to Wargear is generally unrestricted except at gang creation, but access to weapons may be more limited (typically, gangers and juves can't get weapons from the TP/BM)
 

Fireborn

Ganger
Sep 9, 2019
92
39
38
Festus
They can, just not at gang creation:


Those rules have changed in N20 (House of ____ books) compared to N18 and are now on a per fighter basis instead of per gang basis. Access to Wargear is generally unrestricted except at gang creation, but access to weapons may be more limited (typically, gangers and juves can't get weapons from the TP/BM)

So we have been playing it right. After gang creation, wargear just has no restrictions. Weapons restrictions are only weapon class based (pistol, basic, close combat, special, heavy).

sometimes feels weird, when your gang comes into a lot of credits.