I'd go with narrative approach. Although a weapon that is guaranteed to pin has an interesting niche and probably is good for the variety of the game. Does not matter what we end up with as long as wording is clear of misinterpretations.
I'd like to see smoke changed. I don't like its design - smoke is extremely effective during early stages of the campaign and becomes obsolete when a few shooty champions get photo-goggles. I'd like something in between of these two extrenes - smoke that can be fought against by gangs without photo-goggles, but does not get too hard countered by goggles. Our group played with the idea that smoke could give a pseudo-dodge save on getting hit and photo-goggles could reduce it, but not remove it outright. Targetting ground in smoke is forbidden and blasts scatter instead of dispersing if "dodge" save was successful. This way if you have enough dakka you could still hit a target in smoke. As a bonus, it solves a lot of wonkiness with LoS rules.
I'd like to see smoke changed. I don't like its design - smoke is extremely effective during early stages of the campaign and becomes obsolete when a few shooty champions get photo-goggles. I'd like something in between of these two extrenes - smoke that can be fought against by gangs without photo-goggles, but does not get too hard countered by goggles. Our group played with the idea that smoke could give a pseudo-dodge save on getting hit and photo-goggles could reduce it, but not remove it outright. Targetting ground in smoke is forbidden and blasts scatter instead of dispersing if "dodge" save was successful. This way if you have enough dakka you could still hit a target in smoke. As a bonus, it solves a lot of wonkiness with LoS rules.
Is it for grenades only? I'm not sure if I'd want multi-meltas deleting fighters 24" away. We also have melta on melta booby traps, so they'd need that rule clarification too. Speaking of the devil, booby traps seem wonky - theoretically you could litter with them the deployment zone of an enemy - and wipe them out if its small enough like 6" within of the middle. Also in general I'd like different mechanics on how they work - the fact that they are visible and only trigger when moved within 2" makes them extremely situational even in mortalis. I've never seen anyone in my group buying them, nor I've ever heard anyone mention them or use them. They probably need a thorough rework. Same for ammo caches - they are a part of a gang's stash and not a piece of equipmet - do they count for crew rating? Do they count for gang's rating when used? Also why do they dissappear into the void even if they were never used during the battle that their owner won?
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in terms of narrative approach, I don't like the idea of trying to hit someone with a smoke grenade.
I agree. In fact, I dislike anything with a hard-counter. This one is double whammy as Smoke is a hard counter to Shooting and photo-goggles is a hard counter to Smoke. It's just "spend X amount of credits to cancel one of your opponent's strategy". Ugh...
I'd rather Smoke just make you harder to hit (some kind of deployable cover), and photo-goggles mitigate that (but don't cancel it completely)
And whatever we come up with for Smoke, I'd like Pitch black to work in a similar way.
Yes, I don't want that either. In the case of non-grenade Blast weapons (well, except for the GL) it makes more sense to have the projectile lose potency while traveling.
It has been pointed out to me that Melta Bombs don't have the Blast trait though...
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Just to be clear, smoke does not pin as of now and scatters like normal grenades - GW has clarified that. Or did you mean the idea with smoke giving "dodge" to fighters within? Narratively it means that you see a silhouette or movement inside of a smoke cloud and attempt to shoot it, but chances are you were shooting at a wrong spot, even if your aim was good. It terms of melee - close combat in dense smoke is probably exremely chaotic IRL.
Making smoke give a negative to-hit chance would clear up the interaction between Smoke and Overwatch, and also eliminate those weird edge cases with Smoke and melee combat:
Can I hit someone in B2B contact if we're both in smoke? How about if I'm in smoke and they are not, or vice versa? Strict RAW is those are a no (No attacks into, out or through) but thematically it seems nuts.
Hrm. However, what do we do about Infra-Sight?
Currently the choice between Photo Goggles and Infra-Sight is reasonably well balanced. Photo goggles don't take up the valuable 'sight slot' on your weapon, are cheaper (Delaque even more so), and can be used with all weapons. While Infra Sight has the quite powerful ignore-some-cover effect.
Perhaps Infra-Sight would completely eliminate any penalty from Smoke while Photo goggles only partially eliminate it?
EDIT: Thinking about it more, I'm not sure this proposed change actually changes the balance between Photo Goggles & Infra-Sight. It's trickier as the stacking of to-hit bonuses/penalties with your BS stat is a lot more complex, especially if we're considering fiddling around with how bonuses/penalties stack. Uhhh, so no idea here
Can I hit someone in B2B contact if we're both in smoke? How about if I'm in smoke and they are not, or vice versa? Strict RAW is those are a no (No attacks into, out or through) but thematically it seems nuts.
Hrm. However, what do we do about Infra-Sight?
Currently the choice between Photo Goggles and Infra-Sight is reasonably well balanced. Photo goggles don't take up the valuable 'sight slot' on your weapon, are cheaper (Delaque even more so), and can be used with all weapons. While Infra Sight has the quite powerful ignore-some-cover effect.
Perhaps Infra-Sight would completely eliminate any penalty from Smoke while Photo goggles only partially eliminate it?
EDIT: Thinking about it more, I'm not sure this proposed change actually changes the balance between Photo Goggles & Infra-Sight. It's trickier as the stacking of to-hit bonuses/penalties with your BS stat is a lot more complex, especially if we're considering fiddling around with how bonuses/penalties stack. Uhhh, so no idea here
I've tried a smoke with "If an attack passes through smoke it gets a -1, if target is further than 12" away, then it gets a -2" for a bunch of games. It ended up being pretty useless, as most fighters would still easily hit you at close range.
I kind of like smoke as it is. (Beyond a bit of clarifying the effects area, how high it is etc).
I feel that the trick is to balance who photo goggles and infra sights interact with it.
That said, I appreciate that is a difficult task.
I feel that the trick is to balance who photo goggles and infra sights interact with it.
That said, I appreciate that is a difficult task.
This is already handled in the current rule compilation(s). The change introduced in House of Chains/Blades are considered universal updates.
It was a good change to limit this to once per battle. I think that is sufficient for now. An alternative could be to increase the cost, but I don't know if that is needed.
I don't want plasma guns to become any better, allthough the primary/only usage is low power. The plasma grenade is never purchased by anyone at this point, and only has a purpose in desperate situations when picked up for free from plasma terrain. We have so many grenades already, so I'm not desperate to fix it, but leaving it unchanged pretty much means deleting it from the trading post. Even if we don't change plasma grenade, we do have to fix unstable for grenades so that it doesn't explode in the attacker's face at the same time as it is thrown and explode elsewhere.
I like smoke as is.
Although I believe there should be extra kind of 'smoke' grenade, blind grenades.
They exist in lore already, such as the Dark Heresy games. They're basically smoke grenades but with fancy tech-baffler particles that means the smoke is impenetrable to everything visual.
Although they're more expensive, harder to obtain, and have a smaller radius than conventional smoke grenades.
They would give gangs a way to continue a smoke based playstyle even after photogoggles/infrasights enter the equation.
Smoke currently only covers a limited area and only lasts for a turn or two. I don't think it's too game breaking as-is.
It's just a shame that it's almost totally useless after like game 4 of a campaign.
Although I believe there should be extra kind of 'smoke' grenade, blind grenades.
They exist in lore already, such as the Dark Heresy games. They're basically smoke grenades but with fancy tech-baffler particles that means the smoke is impenetrable to everything visual.
Although they're more expensive, harder to obtain, and have a smaller radius than conventional smoke grenades.
They would give gangs a way to continue a smoke based playstyle even after photogoggles/infrasights enter the equation.
Smoke currently only covers a limited area and only lasts for a turn or two. I don't think it's too game breaking as-is.
It's just a shame that it's almost totally useless after like game 4 of a campaign.
If we want to reduce the ability to reload or to make it harder why not get rid of ammo caches as wargear. Leave them as an item of terrain that can be interacted with a la loot casket.
It has been pointed out to me that Melta Bombs don't have the Blast trait though...
This is intentional if I recall (maybe from 2nd Ed 40k) melts bombs are not grenades but targeted anti-tank or demolition charges. They are attached to a target, and when they detonate the trigger a melts blast at point blank range
So from a fluff point of view of you hit with it it should trigger the melta effect, but that will make it a shonky grenade.
This is okay by me as it's meant to be attached to stuff in b2b
Sorry for double posting wanted to separate responses to earlier suggestions from new grist for the mill...
'Sniper' weapons and L/S modifiers
My own pet peeve: It is my humble suggestion to switch the L/S bonus on long las, long rifle, Sniper rifle etc.
Things closer to you should always be easier to hit...
To get an improved long range bonus you need to use a Telescopic sight and aiming - this is thematic and without these elements there is still the longer range as a benefit. This also limits the number of +1 shots a long rifle guy in a tower can get off with overseer.
This limits extreme range shooting a bit which I think there is a consensus for.
Extra Trait for *some* Rapid fire weapons
Something I suggested in the shooting thread was to boost the to-hit of selected rapid fire weapons (perhaps those with more than one RF dice) through the application of a new trait weight of fire or similar to prevent over-complication of the existing RF rules
Armour
I like the suggestions above clearly detailing armour in 'layers' and fields.
My own preference would also be to increase the cost of All armour with the exception of flak. & make undersuit/Body glove/ablative overlay more expensive so that it is cheaper but more rare to buy heavy carapace than light carpace with an undersuit.
Shields
I think all shields should be weapons (to represent their bulk) regardless of whether they actually have a melee profile or not. But they need their own place on the charts/tables/trade posts so they are easy to find.
'Sniper' weapons and L/S modifiers
My own pet peeve: It is my humble suggestion to switch the L/S bonus on long las, long rifle, Sniper rifle etc.
Things closer to you should always be easier to hit...
To get an improved long range bonus you need to use a Telescopic sight and aiming - this is thematic and without these elements there is still the longer range as a benefit. This also limits the number of +1 shots a long rifle guy in a tower can get off with overseer.
This limits extreme range shooting a bit which I think there is a consensus for.
Extra Trait for *some* Rapid fire weapons
Something I suggested in the shooting thread was to boost the to-hit of selected rapid fire weapons (perhaps those with more than one RF dice) through the application of a new trait weight of fire or similar to prevent over-complication of the existing RF rules
Armour
I like the suggestions above clearly detailing armour in 'layers' and fields.
My own preference would also be to increase the cost of All armour with the exception of flak. & make undersuit/Body glove/ablative overlay more expensive so that it is cheaper but more rare to buy heavy carapace than light carpace with an undersuit.
Shields
I think all shields should be weapons (to represent their bulk) regardless of whether they actually have a melee profile or not. But they need their own place on the charts/tables/trade posts so they are easy to find.
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Armour has to be separated into 4 categories:
- Armour
- Layers
- Fields
- Shields (some of which are also close combat weapons)
I have an idea on Smoke effects.
What is it was just the pitch black rules inside the smoke.
photo goggles and infra sights would need to be 12" from a model in smoke to shoot.
Charging into models in smoke would need to be 3" without photo googles.
If you guy is stand next to the smoke you could shoot model 3" away without goggles.
this would makes extreme cases less extreme.
like smoke being completely countered by wargear.
A close range fight having cast of not seeing others 3" away.
and pitch back rules and smoke rules being super weird when use together.
just a thought.
What is it was just the pitch black rules inside the smoke.
photo goggles and infra sights would need to be 12" from a model in smoke to shoot.
Charging into models in smoke would need to be 3" without photo googles.
If you guy is stand next to the smoke you could shoot model 3" away without goggles.
this would makes extreme cases less extreme.
like smoke being completely countered by wargear.
A close range fight having cast of not seeing others 3" away.
and pitch back rules and smoke rules being super weird when use together.
just a thought.
Some things that could do with proper categorisation:
Special Ammo:
In some places it's listed as Wargear under personal equipment. In others, it's in weapons as a subset of the specific gun that uses it. It has its own section in the Trading Post, but that section doesn't actually have all the ammos in it. I think they should count as Wargear and the rest is just for ease of display, but it's worth clearing up. If they count as weapons, the new breeds of Juves and Gangers won't be able to equip them
Grenades:
They're wargear that's also a weapon, except when it's not a weapon. Some weapon effects apply to them, some don't. Got caught out myself the other day trying to think of the best Chem Alchemy for a Choke Gas Grenade when someone pointed out they probably can't use it as it counts as wargear.
Exotic Pets:
They're wargear that's also a fighter. But again, what does that mean? Can I apply effects that say 'to a fighter' to them, or are they essentially wargear? Can I transfer them like wargear?
Chems:
What's a Chem? What can be mixed and what can't? There's stuff like House of Chains saying 'all chems are common' and including Medicae kits and Stimms in the mix, but as far as the rules are concerned the only chems are Frenzon and the like. Does Escher Chem Alchemy count?
Stacking:
I mentioned this before, I think? But can you buy more than one of the same wargear? It's sort of implied that you can, or you wouldn't need a limit on exotic pets. But then you have the option of buying multiple armoured undersuits.
Special Ammo:
In some places it's listed as Wargear under personal equipment. In others, it's in weapons as a subset of the specific gun that uses it. It has its own section in the Trading Post, but that section doesn't actually have all the ammos in it. I think they should count as Wargear and the rest is just for ease of display, but it's worth clearing up. If they count as weapons, the new breeds of Juves and Gangers won't be able to equip them
Grenades:
They're wargear that's also a weapon, except when it's not a weapon. Some weapon effects apply to them, some don't. Got caught out myself the other day trying to think of the best Chem Alchemy for a Choke Gas Grenade when someone pointed out they probably can't use it as it counts as wargear.
Exotic Pets:
They're wargear that's also a fighter. But again, what does that mean? Can I apply effects that say 'to a fighter' to them, or are they essentially wargear? Can I transfer them like wargear?
Chems:
What's a Chem? What can be mixed and what can't? There's stuff like House of Chains saying 'all chems are common' and including Medicae kits and Stimms in the mix, but as far as the rules are concerned the only chems are Frenzon and the like. Does Escher Chem Alchemy count?
Stacking:
I mentioned this before, I think? But can you buy more than one of the same wargear? It's sort of implied that you can, or you wouldn't need a limit on exotic pets. But then you have the option of buying multiple armoured undersuits.
Paired was discussed in the CC thread.
Blaze is generally considered to be an issue, and probably needs toned down bit.
Seismic need clarified as to how it reacts with cannot be pinned etc (although this is probably solved with a solidly written game concepts section. E.g. cannot trumps must etc.
Unstable has been discussed in shooting (generally considered to.be little too harsh, and there are some suggestions there).
Rapid fire has been discussed, although mechanically the old system of rolling for number of.shots then rolling to hit for them all individually is probably more fun and intuitive, it really buffs rapid fire weapons reliability of landing at least one or two hits, so as most rapid fire weapons are already considered good, we probably dont want to.make that change.
Clarify how rapid fire and blast interact
That's a few of the top of my head.
Blaze is generally considered to be an issue, and probably needs toned down bit.
Seismic need clarified as to how it reacts with cannot be pinned etc (although this is probably solved with a solidly written game concepts section. E.g. cannot trumps must etc.
Unstable has been discussed in shooting (generally considered to.be little too harsh, and there are some suggestions there).
Rapid fire has been discussed, although mechanically the old system of rolling for number of.shots then rolling to hit for them all individually is probably more fun and intuitive, it really buffs rapid fire weapons reliability of landing at least one or two hits, so as most rapid fire weapons are already considered good, we probably dont want to.make that change.
Clarify how rapid fire and blast interact
That's a few of the top of my head.
