If memory serves, there are quite a few rare interactions (only allowed to exist by stuff like the Archaeotech device territory) that also need clarifying.
I think it is better to clarify unusual interractions of weapon traits from buffs of territories/skills/ammo in the description of those territories/skills/ammo, otherwise we'll bloat trait descriptions for no gain.
It's even better to word the general rules for interactions and the rules for traits so that there is no need to specifically spell out how each pair interact. But failing that I agree with you.
Another thing that comes to mind: it could be useful to clearly identify what trait combinations are impossible. For instance, it seems to be a design rule that Sidearm and Template cannot coexist on the same weapon.
- Main offenders of trait+effect combination are those that generate multiple to wound rolls from "hits". For example RAW shooting skill that doubles damage from getting a 6 on hit would double damage for every scattershot pellet or rapid fire shot which is something that GW probably was not intending. So having a global rule that only first to-wound roll can benefit from buffs would solve a lot of issues.
- It'd be nice to have exact wording on how improbable shots/melee hits work with "nat 6". Same problem with effects that trigger when a certain to-hit roll is made when you give those to attacks that hit automatically (template weapons, enviromental hazards). Having a global "before resolving an attack, roll a D6, on 6 apply effect" would be nice.
Is there a need for that though? I'd rather have goonhammer rule of allowing flame pistols to autohit in melee - obviously without template usage.
Paired:
- Counts as dual wielding (as original)
- +2A when charging (instead of +1A when charging, replaces 2xA base characteristics when charging)
One thing I'd like to revisit would be to re-look at the interaction between Versatile and Sidearm. I'm tempted to suggest that Sidearms should be able to be used with a fighter's WS, and no to-hit bonuses/penalties, when attacking with a Versatile weapon. There aren't too many 1-handed Versatile weapons (Ignoring unique weapons, I think 13 and there are a lot of Xenos/Corrupted weapons in there) so this doesn't seem outrageous, and to me feels more thematic than the frankly crazy mental image of someone dual-wielding whips, or even more hilariously the Rotary flensing saw...
Sidearms cannot be used alongside a Versatile weapon to make close combat attacks from afar. The proposed change is to allow for them to be used for that purpose (using the same rule as for using them alongside a Melee weapon when the 2 fighters are in b2b contact).
I'd rather not do that. Versatile is strong enough as is and Sidearms can already be used at range (you can Shoot them), including in the same activation as a Versatile Fight action.
It solves the "So tell me again why I can't shoot the dude when he's 2" from me if I also poke him with a whip, but as soon as he's in my face I can shoot him and poke him with my whip" question I have often fielded from players. I can't logically explain away that interaction, and I dislike not having a decent argument for it beyond that it's what the rules say.
Last skirmish I played at the weekend we tried out allowing these two traits to work together as my friend was super-keen on his Shock whip/Needle pistol combo being more useful than it was previously. It came up once, it wasn't hugely impactful as your target is not pinned (and he was trying to stop a Charge) but with a sample size of 1 I'm unconvinced.
Last skirmish I played at the weekend we tried out allowing these two traits to work together as my friend was super-keen on his Shock whip/Needle pistol combo being more useful than it was previously. It came up once, it wasn't hugely impactful as your target is not pinned (and he was trying to stop a Charge) but with a sample size of 1 I'm unconvinced.
I'm inclined to allow versatile to use sidearms.
They don't get to CdG, so they're less impactful than b2b melee.
They don't get to CdG, so they're less impactful than b2b melee.
Shooting a pistol at range is a very different action from shooting it point blank in close combat (that's why one use BS and the other WS). The later is more akin to punching the enemy with the gun and pulling the trigger. That's not something you can do from 3" away. For shooting a gun at range, the fighter should assume a shooting stance, more often than not use both hands, aim a little, etc. not something you can easily do while swinging a whip in with your dominant hand. If you want to use a Sidearm alongside a Versatile weapon then you should logically have to use BS for the sidearm and get either a -1 modifier (as you are firing one-handed, as per twin gun blazing) or a -2 one (as you can't correctly aim at all, as per Blind fire) but that would make it a monstrous hybrid of Fight and Shoot.
Having fired plenty of pistols in my life, I disagree. Now I've naturally never fired one while grappling with an opponent with a chainsword while I try and hit them with an axe, but to me that's a heck of a lot harder than even off-hand (though my off-hand is terrible) shooting at a very short range. Especially considering a lot of these pistols will have a lot less/no recoil compared to what exists now.
I'd argue the main reason pistols use WS in Fight actions is for ease, as it provides a clear demarcation between Fight and Shoot rather than any realistic view of how one uses a pistol in close combat.
As I said, I'm unconvinced of the technical merits but I can't dismiss it out of hand.
I'd argue the main reason pistols use WS in Fight actions is for ease, as it provides a clear demarcation between Fight and Shoot rather than any realistic view of how one uses a pistol in close combat.
As I said, I'm unconvinced of the technical merits but I can't dismiss it out of hand.
Don't open this can of worms please. What is the range of "versatile" sidearms then? Can I hit people 12" away with my non-modified WS if I only use pistols? I think that pistols already have a nice niche of being able to fight + shoot (if the fighter kills their combatants with fight action). No need to give them versatile on top of everything.
I'm not sure if this is something that has been updated in a later book, but based on House of Blades' definition of Scarce and the Rulebook's section on 'Multiple Weapon Profiles', Scarce needs a look at. Specifically, Scarce special ammos
A weapon with multiple profiles that fails an Ammo Check is considered to have failed an Ammo Check for all its profiles. Scarce states that once it fails an Ammo Check it can't be used for the remainder of the battle. So currently if you have a Shotgun with Rad-Rounds and you run out of ammo using Solid Ammo, you can no longer use the Rad Rounds.
Limited sidesteps this with the caveat of 'fails an ammo check whilst using this profile', but if you use that logic for Scarce (say, "fails an ammo check whilst using this profile then this profile can no longer be used for the rest of the battle) then you run into a situation where a Plasma Gun could run out of ammo for one of its profiles but be reloaded with the other.
I think what was supposed to happen, rules-wise, is that all the Scarce Special Ammos are meant to be Limited, and Scarce is designed for things with firing modes like the Plasma Gun and the Hrud Fusil.
Changing Scarce Ammo to Limited would affect Fleshbane Ammo, Phosphor Rounds, Plantbuster Rounds, Rad Rounds, and Purgation Shot according to... an online resource.
A weapon with multiple profiles that fails an Ammo Check is considered to have failed an Ammo Check for all its profiles. Scarce states that once it fails an Ammo Check it can't be used for the remainder of the battle. So currently if you have a Shotgun with Rad-Rounds and you run out of ammo using Solid Ammo, you can no longer use the Rad Rounds.
Limited sidesteps this with the caveat of 'fails an ammo check whilst using this profile', but if you use that logic for Scarce (say, "fails an ammo check whilst using this profile then this profile can no longer be used for the rest of the battle) then you run into a situation where a Plasma Gun could run out of ammo for one of its profiles but be reloaded with the other.
I think what was supposed to happen, rules-wise, is that all the Scarce Special Ammos are meant to be Limited, and Scarce is designed for things with firing modes like the Plasma Gun and the Hrud Fusil.
Changing Scarce Ammo to Limited would affect Fleshbane Ammo, Phosphor Rounds, Plantbuster Rounds, Rad Rounds, and Purgation Shot according to... an online resource.
Weapons with multiple profiles in general could use a clarification as to what happens to them when they run Out of ammo. The problem is that they used a single template to model very different things and only bothered to single out combi-weapons as an exception.
As written, when you fail an ammo check with a Polearm/autogun, the Polearm itself become unusable until the autogun is reloaded. The two profiles are obviously meant to be independent as far as ammo is concerned, not unlike combi weapon.
And yes, there is also an issue with plasma weapons and Scarce, as we want the whole weapon to become unusable when an ammo check is failed regardless of the profile used, but we don't want that to happen to other weapons with Scarce special ammunition.
We also need to clarify how often exactly Melee weapons with an Ammo characteristic need to roll the FP dice.
As written, when you fail an ammo check with a Polearm/autogun, the Polearm itself become unusable until the autogun is reloaded. The two profiles are obviously meant to be independent as far as ammo is concerned, not unlike combi weapon.
And yes, there is also an issue with plasma weapons and Scarce, as we want the whole weapon to become unusable when an ammo check is failed regardless of the profile used, but we don't want that to happen to other weapons with Scarce special ammunition.
We also need to clarify how often exactly Melee weapons with an Ammo characteristic need to roll the FP dice.
We could skip Ammo for Melee weapons completely. Does it add anything to the game other than complexity?
Yes, the ability to new and unique melee weapons with ammo checks and related traits.
