Rules suggestions - Weapons, Wargear and Traits

Thorgor

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Generally I think simpler is better. However I feel toxin deserves a special rule, that means something.
I'd much rather remove paired weapons and a half dozen other special rules/traits before giving up on toxin, which S4 seems to do.

Sure I accept the current one struggles to differentiate itself from regular S4, but that's a problem resulting from the 2-3 attempts they had at sorting toxin rule out. Which if I recall yoyo-d between Op and hot trash, before the current workable but meh.. result. Thematically, Toxin is one of the few weapons that should be a counter to normal Hard to wound targets.. the issue here is they replaced wounding against T with well T...
I believe Toxin ignoring both the wielder's Strength and the target's Wounds make it special enough (less special for ranged weapons of course as they all ignore the wielder's Strength). What is so special about not being good at wounding targets with Toughness 6 or 7? It seems to be the exact opposite of what Toxin should thematically do.

And yes, the history of Toxin explains how we came to the current unsatisfactory result. Which is why I'm quite surprised people seem so attached to it. It's really not something that was well thought-out.
 

TopsyKretts

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Having a flat Str 4 is very unique, no other (melee) weapon has it. Also ignoring all wound without inflicting wounds. I agree Toxin could be designed better by GW, but as it is today, it's basically a Str 4 weapon with the Toxin effect. I think we can easily make this cosmetic change. I'm not sure we won't to make more dramatic changes to traits at this point, at least not if a trait isn't broken mechanically or balance wise.
 
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Al_Weeks

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Ok so the way I see @Thorgors change working is as follows.

Any Toxin and Gas weapon gets a fixed Str of 4 on its profile.

The Toxin trait just keeps to wording about instead of applying damage it just results in the rolling of 1 injury dice per unsaved toxin 'wound'.

The Gas trait keeps the above as well as its ignoring saves wording (this might need some clarification on exactly what 'saves' it ignores based on the discussion we've had round saves in other threads).


The following wargear/traits/abilities can keep its wording as is (or be slightly modified but functionally its the esentially same).

Chemsynth: targets toughness is reduced by one, this works with the new toxin str 4 as above, in most cases it results in the same effective number needed to inflict a wound on the dice as previous)
.
Respirators: increases targets toughness by 2 vs gas, effectively works still, slightly less effective for a T4 fighter being boosted to effective T6.

Filter Plugs, as above.

Esher Chem Alchemy Traits

Gaseous Traits

Acidic, nullified respirators and the like, so works still

Bane, target is treated as if their T3 regardless of their actually toughness characteristic, so works still.

Hallucinogen, needs rewording to say ... in addition to the to wound roll, rather than in addition to the toughness check.

Toxin Traits

Concentrated: Works, but change language to 'add +2 to the to wound roll' instead of it's current wording.

Stimms

Puke: Works as is but language should refer to the to wound roll not 'when testing', slightly less effective for a T3 fighter than before.

House of Chains Genesmithing:

Vatborn Traits.

Hardened Immune system, works as intended. Just needs to refer to only ever wounded on a 6 not 'affected'.

Natborn Traits:

Adaptive Biology: Need changed, but obvious is forces successful wounds from Toxin or Gas weapons to be re rolled.

Industrial Respirator, works as intended vs Gas.

Hazard suits, works as intended vs Gas.


I think that's all the items and rules than interact with the toxin 'toughness test' and how they might need reworded if we move to the Str4 idea.

Functionally the only of note change that this obvious 'read across approach' does is that filter plug and respirators (unless combined with a hazard suit) are functionally pointless for T5 models (it doesnt result in a lower to wound roll vs them), it does help them a bit if the toxin or gas hitting them is affected by a chemsynth.


As I said, if the project decides this is the way I'm ok with that but I'd be happy keeping toxin as it is.

Hope this is at least helpful.
 
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Kiro The Avenger

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Here's something I just thought of.
As it stands, toxin and gas evades certain effects triggered by the strength of a weapon. Displacer fields and conversion fields spring to mind. Creating a strength stat means toxin/gas will now trigger these effects.
 

Spenetrator

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That's not too bad, because you know, it's still a sword/dart/Dagger Grenade, so probably should trigger those effects.
 

Thorgor

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Yeah, I'd say it's killing two birds in one stone really.
It does increase the chance for Choke/Scare Gas Grenades to raise the alarm, but they should probably just get Silent as most ranged Gas and Toxin weapons.

Still not a big fan of all wargear modifying the target's Toughness against Gas or Toxin. It makes sense for protective equipment like Respirators but it would seem more natural for Chem-synth and the like to modify the weapon's Strength instead.
 

JawRippa

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Personally I think that better bet is to think about new players accessibility first, so I'd go with something a bit more radical for toxin, like being a flat STR4, but always wounding at least on 4+. Chemsynth makes toxin wound at least on 3+.

There are a lot of traits which need way more attention than Toxin though. Drag barely works, Concussive is pretty useless for melee (even more than other melee traits designed for the situation in which target survives fight sequence), Backstab is lame and impossible to trigger, Knockback is incredibly confusing, Web is insanely OP...
Also for the love of everything holy and unholy, we need a Move & Fire trait for heavy flamer and such.
 
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Al_Weeks

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Yeah, I'd say it's killing two birds in one stone really.
It does increase the chance for Choke/Scare Gas Grenades to raise the alarm, but they should probably just get Silent as most ranged Gas and Toxin weapons.

Still not a big fan of all wargear modifying the target's Toughness against Gas or Toxin. It makes sense for protective equipment like Respirators but it would seem more natural for Chem-synth and the like to modify the weapon's Strength instead.

As I said the above was just an attempt port across of the existing rules if they work (and chemsynth as written work as intended with your Str4 system).

Chemsythns get nearer to keeping the same effect as they have now if you just let them add +1 to the to wound roll. +1 str is a nerf for them because vs T3 it results in no bonus, but if were tearing up the base toxin rule then we can rewrite all the above gear exactly how we want if were happy to do that.
 

Al_Weeks

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Personally I think that better bet is to think about new players accessibility first, so I'd go with something a bit more radical for toxin, like being a flat STR4, but always wounding at least on 4+. Chemsynth makes toxin wound at least on 3+.

There are a lot of traits who need way more attention than Toxin though. Drag barely works, Concussive is pretty useless for melee (even more than other melee traits designed for the situation in which target survives fight sequence), backstab is lame and impossible to trigger, knockback is incredibly confusing, web is insanely OP...
Also for the love of everything holy and unholy, we need a Move & Fire trait for heavy flamer and such.

Again it's an option, makes the specific anti gas and toxin tech (respirators or gene smithing etc) better vs toxin than just having a naturally high toughness.

I agree with you on the other traits needing much more attention.
 
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Kiro The Avenger

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That's not too bad, because you know, it's still a sword/dart/Dagger Grenade, so probably should trigger those effects.
I disagree, the darts in particular are actually very weak attacks, it's the toxin that gives it punch.
It thought it was quite realistic that they didn't have the power to trigger things like conversion fields - which work by converting the energy of the incoming projectile into light.
 

JawRippa

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Blaze needs to be clarified (we need to make it clear that it replaces the normal activation of the ablaze fighter) and maybe nerfed a little. Chance to set ablaze could be tied to the weapon Str (so that a Heavy flamer has more chance to set you on fire than a hand flamer), or just a variable of the trait (Blaze (4+), Blaze (3+), etc.)
I think that radphage needs different gradations like Blaze trait. We've made radphage trigger on Radgun on 2+ to make it more appealing to take (still a pretty bad template weapon, but at least has some niche usage) Also I'd prefer Blaze not to be tied to a strength of a weapon, but rather be a flat number in brackets. This way, custom ammunition with blaze could have a decent strength shots without being overbearing with high chance of blaze triggering.
On another note, it'd be nice to remove a full counter to effects via hazard suits or van saar built-in bodyglove. Currently Van Saar completely counters another Van Saar who runs rad-phage guns. Instead of complete immunity, such effects should reduce trait's effectiveness by 1. So a rad-phage would trigger against Van Saar fighter on a 5+ instead of 4+.

We need to seriously discuss Web and how it works. I'll confess, I haven't tried playing against web weapons, but I've heard a lot of complaints regarding them. As a concept, what if Web could be applied easier, but was not as lethal? It'd reduce your to-hit by 1 or 2 (or even make any attacks improbable), a fighter would treat all open terrain as difficult and every time a fighter has to make an action (including trying to free themselves from web), they take a flesh wound.

Also anyone else finds it silly that non-organic target like ambot can be poisoned, gassed or fall asleep from tranquilizer in web?
 
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Al_Weeks

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Also anyone else finds it silly that non-organic target like ambot can be poisoned, gassed or fall asleep from tranquilizer in web?

Not to be that guy, but the Ambot is a servator (just a specialised one made from non human parts).
It contains organic parts (the brain and some of the nervous system of an Ambul). Thus the justification that it can be affected by toxin.

I'm sure there is one model that is immune (or practically immune to toxin/Gas), but I can't recall it.
 
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TopsyKretts

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Not to be that guy, but the Ambot is a servator (just a specialised one made from non human parts).
It contains organic parts (the brain and some of the nervous system of an Ambul). Thus the justification that it can be affected by toxin.

I'm sure there is one model that is immune (or practically immune to toxin/Gas), but I can't recall it.
Robo dog comes with built-in respirator mainly because it is mostly mechanic.
 

JawRippa

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Not to be that guy, but the Ambot is a servator (just a specialised one made from non human parts).
It contains organic parts (the brain and some of the nervous system of an Ambul). Thus the justification that it can be affected by toxin.

I'm sure there is one model that is immune (or practically immune to toxin/Gas), but I can't recall it.
I guess that makes gas effective, but toxin still would need to get to the fleshy bits... Which there are not that many of left. Same with web.