N18 Serious Injury change: do you like it?

[JawRippa]

So, a change of 2023 rulebook update has been out for a while. I'm talking about serious injury changes: previously if someone rolled a bunch of 'bones' on injury dice, it didn't stack in any meaningfull manner, just made a fighter seriously injured. However the 2023 update changed that, so now each rolled 'bone' against an already seriously delivers a flesh wound, making the ranged combat a lot more lethal.

I'm asking those who have playtested this (or at least had a group discussion about it), did you like this change or not?

 

[HugeSamples]

I like it. It makes every dice roll meaningful.

However, it does may multi-damage guns even more lethal than they already are.

I also like the "bleeding out" part of trying to recover without assistance. It makes it all that much more important to help out your fighters.

That said I play with the rule of one lasting Injury total per fighter per game for going out of action--not multiple per out of action result.

 

[Aulenback]

And note that the "multiple OOA results" making multiple Lasting Injuries itself is limited in the Rules As Written, because hits are not batch-rolled, but hits are resolved sequentially -- say your 3 melee attacks with a 2 damage weapon gets 2 hits, well if that first hit's 2 damage results in 2 OOA results, that's the "multiple" in question. The second hit's additional 2 damage never get resolved, because the fighter is already OOA. So it is already not too common [we just think it is only because most of us sensibly batch-roll, despite the rules as written].

[This reply is about OOA, not about SI.]

 

[HugeSamples]

And note that the "multiple OOA results" making multiple Lasting Injuries itself is limited in the Rules As Written, because hits are not batch-rolled, but hits are resolved sequentially -- say your 3 melee attacks with a 2 damage weapon gets 2 hits, well if that first hit's 2 damage results in 2 OOA results, that's the "multiple" in question. The second hit's additional 2 damage never get resolved, because the fighter is already OOA. So it is already not too common [we just think it is only because most of us sensibly batch-roll, despite the rules as written].

ah right, I keep forgetting that doing things in batches to save time isn't actually how the game is supposed to function.

 

[HugeSamples]

Does rolling injury dice sequentially apply to single hit, multiple wound roll weapons too? e.g. rapid fire and scattershot.

 

[Banjulhu]

Serious Injury: If a Standing or Prone and Pinned fighter suffers a Serious Injury result, they become Prone and Seriously Injured. If they suffer more than 1 Serious Injury result, each additional result after the first causes them to suffer a Flesh Wound. If this injury was inflicted in close combat, the fighter may be vulnerable to a Coup De Grace (Simple) action.

The wording of Seriously Injured in it's current state because you resolve each hit individually Serious Injury rolls only stack and cause flesh wounds when they originate from weapons with a damage value of 2 or higher.

Quick rolling 3 injury dice from a rapid fire weapons getting lucky or 3 attacks that land and wound in melee only check the first bit of the Serious Injury result because you have not actually suffered more than one Serious Injury during each hit, but three separate hits all causing a Serious Injury.

From a running a campaign perpective we've always worked on the assumption that hits in a single action are meant to be pooled and resolved as one so we do let multiple 1 damage hits cause extra flesh wounds when Serious Injuries are rolled rather than doing nothing.

 

[Aulenback]

Serious Injury does stack even across multiple hits, unlike OOA.

If a fighter is currently Seriously Injured from a previous hit, and suffers an additional Serious Injury (during a Recovery roll, say, or they get shot by another fighter, say), they suffer a Flesh Wojnd and remain Seriously Injured. It says so in the rule you quoted there.

Certainty on that intent comes from reading the recovery roll section of the end phase.

 

[Banjulhu]

The fighter getting a flesh wound in the recovery and restart step of the end phase is it's own unique rule which calls out what happens when a serious injury result is rolled during that check.

The rules for rolling a serious injury in the resolve hit step do not call on a player to track previous injury rolls just the ones that happen then and there. If it wanted to do something like that the rules should have said

"Serious Injury: If a Standing or Prone and Pinned fighter suffers a Serious Injury result, they become Prone and Seriously Injured. If a Seriously Injured model suffers a Serious Injury result, it causes them to suffer a Flesh Wound. If this injury was inflicted in close combat, the fighter may be vulnerable to a Coup De Grace (Simple) action."

Sadly nothing in the rules beyond extrapolation from how recovery works actually supports the way we choose to play it out, but then again expecting consistency in this rule set is not smart.

 

[Aulenback]

If a Seriously Injured model suffers a Serious Injury result, it causes them to suffer a Flesh Wound.

This line:

If they suffer more than 1 Serious Injury result, each additional result after the first causes them to suffer a Flesh Wound.

And that line. Each additional Serious Injury result after that first one that makes them Seriously Injured, is a Flesh Wound instead.

When a fighter suffers a Serious Injury, if they are currently Seriously Injured, it causes them to suffer a Flesh Wound. It is not tracking previous injury rolls. It is tracking current status. Yes, it is GW writing, but it is, thankfully, pretty clear as to intent. It would ALSO include two SI results from a single D2 hit, but also applies to subsequent SI results while Seriously Injured. Because both would qualify as "more than 1".

 

[JawRippa]

I'm confused. RAW, would a fighter who gets hit with 6 bones from a rapid fire bolter become SI and receive 5 flesh wounds or would they become SI and receive only 1 flesh wound?

 

[MusingWarboss]

I'm confused. RAW, would a fighter who gets hit with 6 bones from a rapid fire bolter become SI and receive 5 flesh wounds or would they become SI and receive only 1 flesh wound?

My interpretation would be the SI then five flesh wounds. Depending on their toughness that’s usually enough to reduce them to zero and go OOA.

 

[Aulenback]

They continue being hit with the subsequent hits after the first Seriously Injured result, and those hits cause more Seriously Injured results, and each "additional" SI result when you are already Seriously Injured is a Flesh Wound, so it does look like a whole pile of Flesh Wounds to me.

Edit: Though it could well be worth NOT batch rolling them and instead following the RAW steps, because each of those Flesh Wounds reduces the Toughness of the victim, making the next Wound roll easier.

Edit again: Here is the WHOLE of the Seriously Injured section, which suggests that it IS explicitly both "more than one SI result from a single multi-damage hit" AND "subsequent SI results from subsequent hits":

: If a Standing or Prone and Pinned fighter suffers a Serious Injury result, they become Prone and Seriously Injured. If they suffer more than 1 Serious Injury result, each additional result after the first causes them to suffer a Flesh Wound. If this injury was inflicted in close combat, the fighter may be vulnerable to a Coup De Grace (Simple) action (see page 104). Should a Prone and Seriously Injured fighter suffer one or more Serious Injury results, they suffer an additional Flesh Wound for each.

-- 2023 Core Rule Book, page 125

 

[Banjulhu]

Edit: Though it could well be worth NOT batch rolling them and instead following the RAW steps, because each of those Flesh Wounds reduces the Toughness of the victim, making the next Wound roll easier.

I should really remember to do that with melee fighters with middle of the road strength but lots of attacks.

 

[Aulenback]

I should really remember to do that with melee fighters with middle of the road strength but lots of attacks.

One of my Venators (a gunslinger) uses the Delaque rapid-fire-toxin pistols, and I have to remind myself every time to do those hits in turn.

 

[HugeSamples]

One of my Venators (a gunslinger) uses the Delaque rapid-fire-toxin pistols, and I have to remind myself every time to do those hits in turn.

Just to double check that I understand:

you would do all the rapid fire wound rolls (one hit die, multiple wound dice) from the pistol at the same time, not sequentially, and then do each individual melee hit sequentially?

 

[Aulenback]

RAW, to hit rolls are grouped by weapon and target and modifiers; then, each HIT is resolved in turn, so sequentially. (For shooting and) for melee.

So for example: let's say both pistols are being fired (Shooting, guns blazing) at the same target. Let's say for our example both shots hit, one for two Hits and the other for three Hits.

Resolving each Hit, says the Core Rule Book, means going through the process for each hit, separately. Choose a Hit, roll to wound (Toxin replaces that with a T test), then armour save, then Injury roll if appropriate. If the result is a Flesh Wound, that reduces the Toughness for the next Hit's Toughness Test. Then go to the second of the five Hits, and resolve that (T test, armour save, injury roll if appropriate). And then the next Hit.

In melee, the same. Each pistol gets one WS roll to hit. Then you look at the number of Hits caused by the attacks (and again, some weapons cause more than one Hit), and resolve each Hit in turn.

Batch rolls for "to hit" rolls, and then sequentially resolve Hits caused. That's RAW, even though many (most?) of us don't do that, but instead batch roll everything (possibly a carry-over from other toy soldiers games where the bulk of dice WOULD necessitate it?).

So both shooting Rapid Fire Hits and melee Hits would be done sequentially, if going by the rule book as written; and as folks have pointed out in other threads nearby, it does make a difference.

 

[HugeSamples]

I guess what I'm confused about with rapid fire and scatter shot is you make one "hit roll" and multiple "wound rolls".

Does that one hit roll count and one hit, thus the wounds are processed in a batch?

or

Does that one hit then fork into multiple hits with each wound roll process sequentially?

I.e. does the number of hit dice you roll dictate the number of "batches" you roll for wounding?

Using your example with the 2 pistol shots, would it be:

scenario 1:
- pistol 1 hits and rolls a 2 on the rapid fire dice, getting 2 wound rolls applying the results in parallel.
- pistol 2 hits and rolls a 1 on the rapid fire dice, getting 1 wound roll after pistol 1's wound results have been applied

or

scenario 2:
- pistol 1 hits and rolls 2 on the rapid fire dice, it rolls wound 1 and applies the result, then rolls wound 2 and applies the result.
- pistol 2 hits and rolls a 1 on the rapid fire dice, it rolls its wound and applies the result after pistol one has sequentially applied it's wound results.


In my mind I see the one hit roll as a volley, and that volley is processed at the same time in a batch, so I think scenario 1 makes more sense? That said my mind may be wrong .

Although in scenario 1's case there is now a mathematically optimal order in which to resolve the hits, which feels not great. Unless you roll the hits separately too and resolve things as they come . i.e. you don't get to choose the hit order after seeing the hit results. In that regard, maybe scenario 2 is the correct way to play, albeit slower.

 

[Aulenback]

That one “to hit” roll causes multiple Hits. True of not only scattershot, but also rapid fire.

 

[HugeSamples]

Interesting, guess I've been playing wrong since the start and rapid fire and scatter just went higher in stock than they already were.