N18 Shooting action. Double and basic.

Petforces

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Feb 27, 2018
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If you have an unwieldy weapon. It treats the shooting action as a Double action. There are some tactics cards that say take a shoot basic action, is a shoot action that takes a double action still basic?
 

Vonvilkee

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It is undefined and there will be a discussion of intent. That said I'm in the no camp.

Beyond the language being different I point to last gasp which spells out that you can use the single attack to use an unwieldy weapon in this instance. This to me eludes too the understanding that normally you wouldn't...
 

Thorgor

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Beyond the language being different I point to last gasp which spells out that you can use the single attack to use an unwieldy weapon in this instance.
Last gasp doesn't mention Unwieldy nor the Shoot action. Are you thinking of another card maybe?

Eyes in the dark and Opening Volley (Delaque cards) are interesting because they explicitly state "Note that this does not apply if the action would be (Simple) or (Double) for any reason". But is it just a clarification of a generic rule or a specific restriction that only applies to those cards? The fact they are "notes" and the only post-compendium tactic cards make me think it should be the former. On the other hand, the Compendium version of Overwatch does not have this restriction spelled out.
What I find really interesting is that they also exclude Shoot (Simple) actions, meaning a fighter with Fast Shot cannot use them.

Speaking of Fast Shot, I find it strange that this skill explicitly excludes Unwieldy weapons (meaning you can't fire them twice even with Suspensors or Extra arm — there is even a note about that now) while the Blazing Fury tactic card (that does the same thing for one turn) doesn't.
 

Vonvilkee

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My bad maybe it is take ya with me... I can picture the verbiage but I'm away from my cards. There was a a "reality" vs mechanics debate about amounts of time to do things recently concerning it.
 

Thorgor

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It was Last Gasp then. Thing is, Last Gasp doesn't let the Fighter make a Shoot action, it lets them make a ranged attack (and since it doesn't explicitly exclude Unwieldy weapons, it means you can use them).

Compare:
Last Gasp said:
Before the fighter is removed from play, they can immediately make an attack. This is a close combat attack if they are Engaged, otherwise it is a ranged attack.
Bond of Brotherhood said:
The fighter can immediately make a Fight (basic) or Shoot (basic) action. This is in addition to the two other actions they can make during their turns.
Opening Volley said:
Choose up to 3 fighters to immediately make a free Shoot (Basic) action. Note that this does not apply if the action would be (Simple) or (Double) for any reason.
As written, the first clearly let you use Unwieldy weapons, the last one clearly doesn't (unless you have Suspensors or equivalent) and the middle may or may not allow it.
But are the differences really meaningful or just a product of GW refining their wording over time?
 

TopsyKretts

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I would say the 2nd (Bond of Brotherhood) clearly cannot be used with Unwieldy weapons (unless Suspensors ++). The wording in these matters are rarely consistent, but it does specify "Shoot (Basic)", and heavy weapon is NOT Shoot (Basic). If they wanted to allow Unwieldy, they'd use Ranged attacks like in the 1st example.
 
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Thorgor

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Yeah, that's also where I'm at now. I think they added the note on Opening Volley simply as a reminder/clarification. Bond of Brotherhood would probably have the same note if they released it today.
This also means that a fighter with Fast Shot cannot use this card, or Overwatch.

I'm not sure whether Last Gasp is really meant to work differently (allowing Unwieldy weapons but disallowing Twin Gun Blazing) or if it's just awkward wording (it's part of the very first batch of cards and you know how inconsistent the game was back then).
 
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TopsyKretts

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Yeah, that's also where I'm at now. I think they added the note on Opening Volley simply as a reminder/clarification. Bond of Brotherhood would probably have the same note if they released it today.
I wouldn't be so sure aboute that, they're fully capable of using different wordings on remainders for the same things in a single release.
 

MusingWarboss

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I quite like this double action thing, it allows you to keychain your actions in whichever order you wish (though aiming after shooting would be silly) and also removes things like ‘move or fire’ or ‘run’, which are essentially just doubles of a single now.

On the other hand the old phase system meant confusing things like this didn’t happen. If you moved your heavy weapon, you can’t fire it on the shooting phase.

The problem is they just haven’t clarified the myriad of different cases where the rules exist or contradict. This was never an issue in the phases as an action or inaction in one phase carried over the the next. No confusion.

I would say in the case of the OP if it says basic, it means one slot. Ergo you can’t use a double action (unless that weapon has another piece of kit or your fighter has a skill which reduces it to one.)
 
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