So should we start taking about a Grenade Launcher nerf?

[EarthDragon]

It just seems like this is the weapon that entire gangs are arming all models that can possibly hold one with them. Anytime there is a "defacto" weapon with little variation, this points to a potential problem.

The sheer fact that a GL with frag and krak grenades is cheaper then buying frag and krak granades for an individual is a little silly anyway. My question is where does everyone think the problem lies? I feel there are 8 possible explanations:

1) The Rules around grenade launchers needs to be adjusted/clarified

2) Grenade launchers are too inexpensive/overpowered of a weapon

3) Having two forms of ammo from the start is too many

4) Other weapons are all too expensive/underpowered (the reverse of 2)

5) This is just a popular loadout but not a broken one

6) A complete dismissal of WYSIWYG

7) Lack of restrictions of Special Weapons outside starting gang loadout

8) HWLs allowing for cheaper procurement of weapons that also have less impact on gang rating

Where does everyone feel the problem(s) exists? And keep in mind, not too many people are gonna buy #5 if you find yourself personally recommending to everyone to load up on GLs.

Edit: As more concrete individual items are brought up, I'm expanding this initial list.

 

[TopsyKretts]

For anyone who wonderes, here is a small list of problems:
-Costs less than grenades purchased separately (as mentioned) with the added bonus of greatly extended range (24") and can be reloaded which normal grenades cannot
-Ignores target priority, can even shoot at hidden fighters
-Fairly easy to snipe fighters engaged in close combat
-Ignores all cover (which is the purpose with blast weapons, but also has a massive impact)
-Rules for scatter still gives a good chance at hitting the original target and/or other nearby

This weapon... it's a special weapon. So it should be something you see rarely. It's traditionally not the best special weapon. In 40k, it would be fairly cheap and weaker than the real powerful special weapons like Plasmas or Meltas. I guess this was achieved by the low strength and AP. I mean, meltas and plasmas are something you use to kill terminators and land raiders with. A Grenade Launcher is good for killing gretchins...

In the previous Necromunda edition (Community), the Grenade Launcher was about the same price as now, but grenades had to be purchased separately. Maybe that would work here too? Back then, Grenade Launcher was a weapon which most gangs didn't even field. I think the rules should be adjusted in such a way that only a small portion of the gangs in a group would even include it.

I would prefer to fix this using option 1), but the realistic solution may well be option 2).

 

[EarthDragon]

It's funny as I was a huge fan of GLs in the last iteration, but that also made it special when I utilized them. Most gangs wouldn't bother, except for Van Saar when they had a half dozen techies running around, and that was after they had a couple meltas and plasma guns. So it's not like you couldn't do some of the same stuff you are seeing here, it was just at a higher cost, but then again, so did arming a lasgun versus a laspistol.

And I absolutely forgot a 6th point:


6) A complete dismissal of WYSIWYG.

While some complain WYSIWYG creates cookie cutter builds, this is a PRIME example that things are more cookie cutter when it gets ignored.

 

[Draco]

Grenade launchers need a cost adjustment at most. The alternative is to limit the weapon to one grenade type per launcher.

Keep in mind that a pseudo str 8 is a grenade launcher without ammunition. The original Necromunda version could fire at 72 mu.

 

[MusingWarboss]

Various issues above aside, the whole “special weapon” thing is kinda pointless when they can be taken by everyone bar a juve. How very un-special.

Older versions SW were limited to Leader (max 1) or Heavies (max 2).

I’m not totally up to date on the latest Gang War books but I’m pretty sure there’s no limit to Specialist or Champions now bar the 50% Ganger thing. Plus Gangers can take 1 SW in game one and unrestricted after. Unless those have changed.

Anyway what I’m getting at is that the relatively unrestricted access to these weapons in Gangs, plus the favourable pricing means that spamage if you’re that way inclined is indeed an option. You’re not losing slots for other kit as almost everyone can equip anything.

The older system made you think and choose your kit wisely because you were limited to 3 slots max for any SW and 2 for HW**. You could swap kit but big expensive guns tended to stick around.

Biggest mistake in N17 - free for all on guns. At the rate things are going I expect to see Scalies duel-wielding combi Heavy Bolters/Harpoon as standard from game 1.

**EDIT: Just checked as I thought I’ve never played with more than two heavies ... ORB was indeed two heavies max. Even more restriction!

 

[EarthDragon]

Various issues above aside, the whole “special weapon” thing is kinda pointless when they can be taken by everyone bar a juve. How very un-special.

Older versions SW were limited to Leader (max 1) or Heavies (max 3).

I’m not totally up to date on the latest Gang War books but I’m pretty sure there’s no limit to Specialist or Champions now bar the 50% Ganger thing. Plus Gangers can take 1 SW in game one and unrestricted after. Unless those have changed.

Anyway what I’m getting at is that the relatively unrestricted access to these weapons in Gangs, plus the favourable pricing means that spamage if you’re that way inclined is indeed an option. You’re not losing slots for other kit as almost everyone can equip anything.

The older system made you think and choose your kit wisely because you were limited to 4 slots max for any SW and 3 for HW. You could swap kit but big expensive guns tended to stick around.

Biggest mistake in N17 - free for all on guns. At the rate things are going I expect to see Scalies duel-wielding combi Heavy Bolters/Harpoon as standard from game 1.

Excellent point man, I'm expanding the list with reason 7!! I was even beating around that in my second post, but just didn't quite land on it.

There IS hope however. The Genestealer Cultists are restricted to 1 Hvy Weapon no matter what. They have 3 options as well, so you can't even dabble in a little of this or that. This is something that probably needs to be looked at across the board for all gangs. A Goliath Gang seems like maybe it would have no problem with it's Gangers utilizing Heavy Weapons, but perhaps gangers don't at anytime get Special Weapons. Van Saar could be the reverse.

Just spinning ideas

 

[Vonvilkee]

Penalize taking multiples maybe? First grenade launcher (or combi plasma, or melta or straight plasma) at printed cost second is 1.5, then double etc... this should encourage more varied gang setups. Apply this to all special weapons only. Heavy weapons are expensive and limited enough. This might just make special weapons feel special again.

 

[Stoof]

Personally it's a price issue. I have no problem with the new blast rules, so long as the weapons using them are suitably pricy. The grenade launcher is far too cheap in this case.

My favourite fix would be "price does not include grenades - buy separately at the cost of the thrown equivalent". That would likely fix any spamming issue immediately whilst still making them competitive with other special weapons. I think this was possibly the case in an earlier draft of the rules... then the launcher was changed to include grenades, but the price stayed the same.

I would also go as far as to say only Leaders, Champions and Specialists can take special weapons (this is a house rule in my campaign).

 

[Thorgor]

1) The Rules around grenade launchers needs to be adjusted/clarified

2) Grenade launchers are too inexpensive/overpowered of a weapon

3) Having two forms of ammo from the start is too many

4) Other weapons are all too expensive/underpowered (the reverse of 2)

5) This is just a popular loadout but not a broken one

6) A complete dismissal of WYSIWYG

7) Lack of restrictions of Special or Heavy Weapons outside starting gang loadout

1) Yes, they need to. First of all, they should specify what a 'point' becomes in 3D space (can you target a point in mid-air?) and how the template translates to 3D. Some kind of interaction with the target priority rules would also be nice, as would cover offering some kind of bonus if there is some between the center of the blast and the target.

2) Yes. It's mostly a problem for gang that have the GL in there HWL though, as it is both way cheaper (55 credits instead of 65+1D6*10 credits) and more accessible for them (other gang can only get them one at a time from the trading post, and have to be lucky). In fact, I think HWL making some of the rare items common for a specific house is a huge mistake that encourage spamming, and I would make it reason #8.

3) I don't think it's a problem in and of itself. Other weapons with 2 ammo types from the start (shotgun, combat shotgun, etc.) don't have the same issues. Assuming #2 is fixed first, being able to purchase the grenade launcher with only one ammo type would actually make it more accessible.

4) This may also be a problem. I feel like some other special/heavy weapons may be too expensive. But let's fix #2 first.

5) Nah

6) This may be an enabler but not the root problem. Enforce strict WYSIWYG and all that will change is people will complain they need to buy and convert a lot of extra GL in order to spam it.

7) It's a problem, but it's not limited to the Grenade Launcher.

 

[Shasel]

I have two thoughts on this.
First if you must edit the rules then I would suggest that each subsequent special weapon of the same type costs more. An extra 20 credits for every time it turns up for instance?
Second surely this is more down to how people play? If you are playing the sort of person who will spam one type of weapon just to try and as you fix one issue they will move on to the next. Surely One of the joys of Necromunda is it is less competitive than 40k and people should build their gangs based on he rule of cool rather than just to win?

 

[lodbro]

in our group we have to buy ammo (granades) för the launcher seperatly, so the cost in trade post is just for the launcher with no ammo.
we also use "hard cover" for targetting a point on the board insted of a model

 

[Stoof]

If you are playing the sort of person who will spam one type of weapon just to try and as you fix one issue they will move on to the next.

Yeah, if they're that kind of person they will - however if the next-worse issue is nowhere near as advantageous to them then the problem is greatly lessened. There will always be some weapons that are slightly better in cost/benefit than others. The trick is to get the costs balanced as best you can so you still have lots of options, but there is no stand-out super cheap no-brainer option.

I seems most people here play by the Rule of Cool - "I have this miniature I've just built, it's really cool, I want it in my gang", which to me is the spirit of Necromunda - flavour over WAAC.

 

[SumpRat]

I reckon it’s a mix of fairly cheap + unlimited availability.

Everyone can have them and they’re buttons.

I’d have kept the grenades separate (probably start with frag like), and made is so only Officers and Specialists can utilise special Weapons.

 

[Thorgor]

seems most people here play by the Rule of Cool - "I have this miniature I've just built, it's really cool, I want it in my gang", which to me is the spirit of Necromunda - flavour over WAAC.

That's all good and all, but if you are going to have an unwritten rule against grenade launcher spamming, why not go all the way and actually write it?

Ideally, copy-paste profiles should be discouraged by the game itself without having to resort to artificial limitations or incremental cost penalties that are hard to justify from the fluff point of view. You want weapons to be balanced enough and different enough from one another so that spamming the same one over and over will organically put you at a disadvantage.

 

[Ironside83]

What would you think of a GL(Frag) that simply had an additional negative modifier to hit?

Say -3 at short range, -2 at long range... Would it sufficiently offset the ability to target random spaces by making it far more likely that the grenade will scatter?

 

[EarthDragon]

Maybe not as harsh as the above penalty, but it’s a thought.

I truly feel like the main issue is the cost first and foremost however. Base cost should be around 100 and maybe a house or two could snag one for 90 IF you are going to supply two forms of grenades. Launcher and thrown should also have either the same cost of the LAUNCHER ammo should cost more, and you are getting more distance and utility out of them.

After re-looking at the costs, this weapon is just far cheaper then it should be (by presumably almost half) and by just addressing that issue, all other things will come in-line.

 

[Stoof]

After re-looking at the costs, this weapon is just far cheaper then it should be (by presumably almost half) and by just addressing that issue, all other things will come in-line.

Incidentally, not including grenades in the price acieves almost this.

For Goliath/GSC:
85cr for launcher with frags, 100 for launcher with kraks, 130 for launcher with both - seems quite sensible to me.

For everyone else:
95cr for launcher with frags, 110 for laucnher with kraks, 140 for both.

If anything, still slighlty cheap on the Frags front.

 

[spafe]

What about a blanket to hit roll? always hits on a 5+ to represent the crazy difficulty of launching a grenade in the underhive. Combine that with a greater scatter and it'd be fine I suspect, even for its cost.

 

[KopMcGinty]

Start talking about GL's being rediculous? We started that day one right?

I immediately made them subject to normal target priority in our campaign (not centred on nearest but must be affecting them). Consensus amongst the more experienced is that it's still way too good and should come with frag only or even have that need to be purchased in addition to the launcher.

I'm personally also a fan of restricting it to Leaders, Champs and specialists only. I'm wondering if allowing the one ganger the rules allow to take a special weapon at creation to continue though.

 

[SirMattius]

It's not the multi ammo types per say, given the shotguns, I think.

How's about
Target a person, rules as is.
Target a space, always scatters. The hit on an art dice has an arrow. Scatters d6 or 2 d6 maybe.