Some math on Toxic weapons

Jun 15, 2014
227
457
73
Almeria, Spain
Hi, I did some math on the Toxic rule for N17 to see how really affects the injury roll:

On a normal injury roll you have 2 flesh wound results, 3 Serious Injures and 1 Out action
That is:
33,3% Flesh Wound
50% Serious Injury
16,6% Out of Action

With a weapon with the Toxic rule (2d6 vs 1d6+Victim T). % changes to:
(My math skill are quite basic, so if anyone want to check please confirm me)

Vs R 3
37,5% No effect
12,5% Serious Injury
50% Out of Action

Vs R 4
50% Flesh Wound
12,5% Serious Injury
37,5% Out of Action

In both cases chances to get and OoA enemy directly is higher with the drawback of the chance of doing nothing.
This could have some interest for ranged weapons (mostly for R3 targets), but in CC when Serious injures changes to OaA with the free Coup action I agree I would use a normal weapon if I have the option.
 
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Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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Yes, your values are correct. Here is the full data:
670152ToxinSucks.jpg

As written, a Melee weapon with Toxin would be better without the Trait against anything T3 or higher.
I'm pretty sure Toxin is supposed to replace the Wound roll and not the Injury roll though, as evidenced by their cost and this comment from the Escher Tactica:
Finally, House Escher gangs can take a range of lethal Toxin and Gas weaponry, including the aforementioned stiletto knife. These weapons bypass the normal process for wounding fighters and are therefore perfect for the low-Strength Escher.
 
Jun 15, 2014
227
457
73
Almeria, Spain
Thanks a lot Thorgor for the full table.

I also think it should work in the same way as Gas. Also there is no problem of being 2 different traits with the same effect because they interact differentyl with respirators por example, or maybe anti-toxin wargear in the future.

Hope to have official errata soon.
 
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Jun 15, 2014
227
457
73
Almeria, Spain
I was still thinking about Toxins (and Gas) maths.

If we change Toxin to work the same as Gas, will have the % above but directly without any chance of not woundings. Which seens really powefull, even a bit over the top but at least is not a waste of points.

But then (as Gas does) you would not be actually causing wounds. So e.g. a multiwound model can get a Serious Injury form a house ruled Toxin or Gas, recover later to flesh wound and than you would need to still cause it 2 wound to roll injuries again.
And I personally hate rules that skip core mechanics of a system.

What would be your opinion of treating both Toxin and Gas like the following:

-Auto wounding D1 attacks
-IF cause an injury roll then roll the 2d6 vs 1d6+T

This make Gas (and how Toxin as most people want to work) weapons exactly the same againt 1W models, follow the regular steps as other weapons, and make valuable multiwound models. Probably in this case respirators would need to be toned down a bit.
 

Vonvilkee

Gang Hero
Jan 7, 2018
649
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Bellingham, Washington USA
The math and tables assumes CDG of seriously injured fighters which happens regularly but there are ways to play around them. Charging non ready fighters or multiple engagements. Toxin isn't an offensive power house ability it is the dirty backup weapon best used in reaction strikes. Used in this context you are far more likely to get an ooa than with regular weapons. Worth the creds? Prolly not in creation, later in campaigns quite likely...
 

EAfirstlast

Ganger
Aug 31, 2017
86
44
28
Alexandria, VA, USA
The math and tables assumes CDG of seriously injured fighters which happens regularly but there are ways to play around them. Charging non ready fighters or multiple engagements. Toxin isn't an offensive power house ability it is the dirty backup weapon best used in reaction strikes. Used in this context you are far more likely to get an ooa than with regular weapons. Worth the creds? Prolly not in creation, later in campaigns quite likely...
;ater in the campaign where higher toughness will be very common?
 

Kairae

Gang Champion
Dec 29, 2017
319
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Australia
The math and tables assumes CDG of seriously injured fighters which happens regularly but there are ways to play around them. Charging non ready fighters or multiple engagements. Toxin isn't an offensive power house ability it is the dirty backup weapon best used in reaction strikes. Used in this context you are far more likely to get an ooa than with regular weapons. Worth the creds? Prolly not in creation, later in campaigns quite likely...
"Serious Injury (Broken Bone – 3 faces)
The fighter is laid face-down – they are Seriously Injured until they successfully recover in a subsequent End phase. If the injury was caused in close combat, and the attacker is not Engaged with any other fighters, they can immediately make free Coup de Grace action against the target. Close combat can be deadly !"

Charging non-ready fighters has no effect on the 'free' coup de grace. Even in reaction you get take them OOA if you're not still Engaged.

At the moment, the relative performance of Stiletto weapons reduces as the campaign progresses. Toughness and Armour both increase, improving the relative utility of Power Swords (mitigates armour) and Shock Whips (mitigates toughness). It's worse if you allow access to the Gangs of Legend weapon list, as Swords significantly outperform Stiletto weapons the way it currently is and do better vs well equipped opponents (for instance, Swords are less vulnerable to parrying than Stiletto Swords thanks to the +1 to hit).

I think 'Toxin replacing the wound roll' is extremely strong: but I also think that's ok. I don't think it makes Escher as a whole unbalanced. Yes it means that you really don't want to get charged by an Escher fighter but that's the way it should feel. In just the same way that a Stimm'd up Goliath supported by the right tactic cards is practically unstoppable (for a round) or a Van Saar/Delaque Leader/Champion with Shooting skills and a decent gun is stupidly strong.