N18 Some questions about Enforcers and Grinders

[ah64pilot5]

1: How do Palanite Enforcers spend their EXP?
Specifically, Do Rookie Patrolmen use the normal chart for their advance costs (but the appropriate skill tables)? Also, do they benefit from the normal Juve not having to pay extra for subsequent advances? What happens to them after each campaign when they have 5+ advances,, do they automatically become Sergeants? If so , can they become Subjugators? What about the 0-2 restriction? (Just retire them or dump the other Sergeant and use them to replace??)
How do Patrolmen spend their EXP? The chart shows that they have skill tables for them, but how do they access them? Are they treated as Specialists for purposes of skill and stat advancements (the Book of Ruin actually specifies that the Skinners are treated as specialists for this purpose, but have I missed where this is addressed for the Enforcers?)

2: What weapons can they buy at a trading post? For that matter, can they even go to the trading post?I have seen back and forth that they can only ever have weapons listed on their squad equipment list, but then it also states the usual that they can be given addition weapons but only of the “type” allowed by the type of ganger the model is. Is “type” referring to specifically the weapons on the enforcer list, or the normal “heavy weapon” or “special weapon” as the type—can I give an heavy bolder to a Subjugator Champion after the first game of the campaign and after going to the trading post as when added to the gang they are one given weapons/equipment from their house list.

3: Along the lines of #1, what happens to Corpse Grinder initiates after 5 advances….? Do they become champions then? If they do, must they give up their ranged weapons or can they keep them as you cannot take weapons away from a model once added (great way to get a champion who can actually shoot as well as chop).

 

[Scabs]

I don't know the answers. But, there has to be a better shorthand than "Grinders."

 

[JayTee]

For #2, the specific restrictions are:

"They may only choose weapons from the Palanite/Subjugator Weapons List, but otherwise have no weapon restrictions"

So I'd say regardless of being able to buy weapons, Enforcers are restricted to only weapons on their lists.

 

[Thorgor]

Rookies/Initiates should follow all the rules for Juves except when otherwise indicated. They can pick advancements, are exempted from the XP tax and turn into Sergeants/Cutters if they have 5 or more advancements during Downtime (or the equivalent for non-Dominion campaigns).

I believe the 0-2 limit on Sergeants only applies when the gang is founded. However, it's clear that the 0-3 limit on Cutters always applies, and since rookies are not counted as 'other fighters' for the minimum number of Patrolmen you need, it could still be an issue for Enforcers. I'd say the best way to handle it is to not promote the rookie/initiate if it would cause the gang composition to become illegal.
Having an initiate being promoted to cutter would be quite a downgrade as they would have to stop using their ranged weapons (but you would still be unable to get them back in the stash) and would become subpar melee fighters (with Infiltrate, though). It's also unclear whether their masks would turn into a Cutter masks or stay as Initiate masks (and the same applies to the leader's replacement if the original butcher gets killed).

Rookies are all Palanite so should stay Palanite when promoted to Sergeant. The Subjugator upgrade is apparently something you can only get when the fighter is hired.

Patrolmen may or may not be considered Specialists. It's hard to tell whether they forgot to add the same 'Specialist' special rules they later gave the Skinners, or if their line in the Skill access table should read 'Patrolman Specialist'. I think they are supposed to be specialists.

I think the restriction to using weapons from their HWL should always apply even if it's not strictly based on weapon type. Compare to the 20 credit limit on house gang juve equipment that is specifically stated to be lifted after they get their first advancement (and is not based on the weapon type either).
Enforcers and Corpse grinder should get normal access to the Trading post / Black market though.

 

[ah64pilot5]

With the weapons restrictions,, it makes sense when a new gang member is added,, but after and between games, it should allow for you to add additional weapons, just of the appropriate type (pistol, special, etc.), but they were very much not clear on this, and the fact that no where does it specifically allow them to go to the trading post.. (so how are they supposed to get magnacles????).
I also agree that the patrolmen should have been listed as Specialists.. or at least in the description, be directed to advance as one,, they did that with the Corpse Grinders,, and would have made sense to do that for the Enforcers too.
I could buy that promoted juves can only be enforcers and not subjugators,, but giving them the option to become one would be much better, but perhaps they would have to by the armor separately?? Since the biggest difference between the two is armor and weapon selections??
On the 0-2 though,, the gang creation rules state the 0-2, then below the next paragraph says the must still follow all of the rules, plus the additional rules below.. that would allude to only ever 0-2... Other than the Corpse Grinders,,, no other gang has that specific numerical restriction,, they are all the usual # gangers equal/greater than everyone else, so while I would like to see that as creation only,,, it seems to be very targeted.
I also agree on the CGC juve advancement, that they would actually get worse by upgrading them,, but then what do you do, the rules state that if they have the advances, they become champions... I guess you just ditch them from the gang rather than upgrade them?? I kinda like the idea that the upgraded guy could have a second weapon set that still includes his original ranged weapons,, but that any additional weapons added become restricted as per a champion.. also, how about requiring him to keep his original mask, but give the option to buy the new mask for a small cost.

 

[Jumbley]

With the weapons restrictions,, it makes sense when a new gang member is added,, but after and between games, it should allow for you to add additional weapons, just of the appropriate type (pistol, special, etc.), but they were very much not clear on this, and the fact that no where does it specifically allow them to go to the trading post.. (so how are they supposed to get magnacles????).

Yep - if you interpret that Enforcers get no Trading Post access, that means no handcuffs for the cops. Even though it comes in their model kit. Woops.

I also agree that the patrolmen should have been listed as Specialists.. or at least in the description, be directed to advance as one,, they did that with the Corpse Grinders,, and would have made sense to do that for the Enforcers too.

Absolutely agreed. I'd go so far as to say that this was the intention, now that we've seen how it works with the CGC: but, they buggered up writing in the actual rules, as they have demonstrably done countless times before.

I could buy that promoted juves can only be enforcers and not subjugators,, but giving them the option to become one would be much better, but perhaps they would have to by the armor separately?? Since the biggest difference between the two is armor and weapon selections??

To be fair, the cost of the armour is the cost you're paying to upgrade. But it's still a completely arbitrary restriction. Why shouldn't you be able to upgrade your Enforcers if you want? If you've already house ruled the ridiculous mechanics behind equipment load outs, it shouldn't be an issue.

On the 0-2 though,, the gang creation rules state the 0-2, then below the next paragraph says the must still follow all of the rules, plus the additional rules below.. that would allude to only ever 0-2... Other than the Corpse Grinders,,, no other gang has that specific numerical restriction,, they are all the usual # gangers equal/greater than everyone else, so while I would like to see that as creation only,,, it seems to be very targeted.

Yep, and that's pretty clearly RAW as well. It's an obvious mistake (what happens when one of your Rookies becomes a Sergeant? what happens if you get a free champion from a boon?), and an egregiously large disadvantage to enforcers. But, GW doubled down on those rules again in the Dark Uprising book, so we can only assume that is working as intended!

 

[Thorgor]

Afaic, the rules read "when founded [...] the gang may include 0-2 Champions"
0-2 at gang creation then limited by the number of gangers is the normal template all gangs except CGC uses. I don't think Enforcers are supposed to deviate from this template except by having their Juves (rookies) not count towards the limit. It's worded/formatted differently but that's pretty much it imo.

Compare to stuff like "The gang may only ever include 0-1 Cult Witch" or "The gang may only ever include a maximum of 0-3 Champions (Cutters) at any time" that are way clearer (even though "a maximum of 0-3" is yet another blunder).
Of course, the usual "A gang founded for a campaign can contain no more than two <Champions>. Additional <Champions> may be added to the gang during the course of the campaign." is also way clearer.
But that only makes the Enforcers wording ambiguous.

 

[ah64pilot5]

Yep - if you interpret that Enforcers get no Trading Post access, that means no handcuffs for the cops. Even though it comes in their model kit. Woops.

Absolutely agreed. I'd go so far as to say that this was the intention, now that we've seen how it works with the CGC: but, they buggered up writing in the actual rules, as they have demonstrably done countless times before.

To be fair, the cost of the armour is the cost you're paying to upgrade. But it's still a completely arbitrary restriction. Why shouldn't you be able to upgrade your Enforcers if you want? If you've already house ruled the ridiculous mechanics behind equipment load outs, it shouldn't be an issue.

Yep, and that's pretty clearly RAW as well. It's an obvious mistake (what happens when one of your Rookies becomes a Sergeant? what happens if you get a free champion from a boon?), and an egregiously large disadvantage to enforcers. But, GW doubled down on those rules again in the Dark Uprising book, so we can only assume that is working as intended!

I like that double down.... about right for GW.... Im hoping that they will address this via FAQ at some point,,, what is really annoying with the trading post issue is that where other gangs are specifically allowed to go to the trading post, enforcers are only specifically allowed to "scavenge" and other than through the use of scavenge gained from the ruin campaign specifically, there is no description of how they scavenge or what they can gain from them....
Please, please GW,,, FAQ them for allowing trading post and for heavens sake,, give them all magnacles either as basic equipment or on their house list for 5 creds a pop...(I have emailed the Necromunda FAQ people with these questions.... so I will cross my fingers that at some point before N27 they get addressed....)

 

[Thorgor]

Can other gangs scavenge? Can other gangs buy stuff from the black market? Can other gangs get items in exchange for prisoners? Can other gangs purchase items from their gang equipment list? Can other gang get items from racket boons?

RAW they can't, since their gang composition rules only mention they can get new items from the Trading post or Territory boons...

Why should RAW only apply to Enforcers/Corpse Grinder Cults? The only reason the trading post is not mentioned for those gangs is because it's not a thing in the Dark Uprising campaign.

 

[ah64pilot5]

Can other gangs scavenge? Can other gangs buy stuff from the black market? Can other gangs get items in exchange for prisoners? Can other gangs purchase items from their gang equipment list? Can other gang get items from racket boons?

RAW they can't, since their gang composition rules only mention they can get new items from the Trading post or Territory boons...

Why should RAW only apply to Enforcers/Corpse Grinder Cults? The only reason the trading post is not mentioned for those gangs is because it's not a thing in the Dark Uprising campaign.

But it is also not mentioned in the book of Judgment for the enforcers,,, it also states from the house list or scavenging,,, while the other gangs lists specifically state the trading post (and the black market is a subset of the trading post)... I don't know if it was an oversight that players would assume that enforcers could use the trading post, or deliberate that they could not.. but the gangs are given specific permission to go there while enforcers are not,,,

 

[Thorgor]

But it is also not mentioned in the book of Judgment for the enforcers,,, it also states from the house list or scavenging,,, while the other gangs lists specifically state the trading post (and the black market is a subset of the trading post)... I don't know if it was an oversight that players would assume that enforcers could use the trading post, or deliberate that they could not.. but the gangs are given specific permission to go there while enforcers are not,,,

Since scavenging is mentioned in the original Enforcer rules, I stand by my opinion that they were written with the Uprising campaign in mind as opposed to the Law and Misrule campaign and that's the reason the trading post is not mentioned (since it doesn't exist in the Uprising campaign).
Enforcers and Corpse Grinder Cults can buy stuff from the Trading post in a Dominion campaign because the rules for the Dominion campaign say that gangs can do that. They don't need special permission. The line in their gang composition rules doesn't give house gangs permission to buy stuff from the trading post either, it just lists a few of the places they may get new items from during the campaign.

If you don't accept that, then you have to accept that only Enforcer and Corpse Grinder Cults are allowed to scavenge in an Uprising campaign. Which we know not to be true.

Edit: just to be clear, I think it's terrible writing. Whether I'm correct or you are, there were many ways for the writers to make it clearer and spare us all those issues. We shouldn't have to spend so much time trying decipher their thought process (or lack thereof).

 

[ah64pilot5]

Since scavenging is mentioned in the original Enforcer rules, I stand by my opinion that they were written with the Uprising campaign in mind as opposed to the Law and Misrule campaign and that's the reason the trading post is not mentioned (since it doesn't exist in the Uprising campaign).
Enforcers and Corpse Grinder Cults can buy stuff from the Trading post in a Dominion campaign because the rules for the Dominion campaign say that gangs can do that. They don't need special permission. The line in their gang composition rules doesn't give house gangs permission to buy stuff from the trading post either, it just lists a few of the places they may get new items from during the campaign.

If you don't accept that, then you have to accept that only Enforcer and Corpse Grinder Cults are allowed to scavenge in an Uprising campaign. Which we know not to be true.

Edit: just to be clear, I think it's terrible writing. Whether I'm correct or you are, there were many ways for the writers to make it clearer and spare us all those issues. We shouldn't have to spend so much time trying decipher their thought process (or lack thereof).

I do agree,,, scavenge for all in Ruin,,,, trading post for all in others,,,, and if GW would actually take some pride and hire a real editing staff we wouldn't have to ouija board or magic 8 ball all of their rules...lol. I just want my enforcer with an auto cannon...thinking total rule of cool on that one

 

[UnderhiveGangstar]

Has anyone considered that maybe magnacles aren't available to purchase because all the palanite enforcers are meant to get them for free like the stub gun? It could be that they just forgot to type it, but would make a lot of sense that all officers have cuffs.

 

[Jumbley]

I'd be more inclined to care about Magnacles not being on the list if they were a bit more useful... very strange rules.

If I was to house rule them, I'd probably just make them provide a straight up bonus to your capture rolls. Nice and simple, and attractive for an Enforcer player.

 

[JayTee]

I'm allowing Magnacles to be used after a charge, in place of your normal Fight Action so a basic Rookie with Magnacles is pretty effective at shutting down a scary opponent. I'm also probably going to allow the Magnacled target to only attack with unarmed attacks as something like a CGC Butcher with Heavy Chain Cleavers is still scary even at -2 to-hit.

 

[TheCaptain1989]

I'm allowing Magnacles to be used after a charge, in place of your normal Fight Action so a basic Rookie with Magnacles is pretty effective at shutting down a scary opponent. I'm also probably going to allow the Magnacled target to only attack with unarmed attacks as something like a CGC Butcher with Heavy Chain Cleavers is still scary even at -2 to-hit.

Can you not normally use them after a charge? I thought it was instead of a coup de grace?

 

[Thorgor]

Can you not normally use them after a charge? I thought it was instead of a coup de grace?

It's instead of a Fight (Basic) action actually, but I think you can normally use them after a charge nonetheless, even RAW, as it replaces the Fight action and is not a separate action like Hurl or Headbutt.
You may have confused Magnacles with the Restraint Protocol skill (that has a similar fluff but replaces a Coup de grâce).

 

[TheCaptain1989]

That’s exactly what I’ve done - I was thinking of restraint protocol. Cheers!

 

[JayTee]

Magnacles can be used in place of an Attack (Basic) Action. There is no Attack Action so it's assumed that should be a Fight Action and it's just the usual lack of proofreading. I just clarified with my group that yes your free Fight Action from Charging can be swapped out for Magnacles (and Headbutt or Hurl, but that's another point entirely).

The coup de grace replacement is the Enforcer skill Restraint Protocols

 

[UnderhiveGangstar]

Where in the book are the rules for them? I cant actually find them anywhere.