N18 Spyrer taking an Escher Cutter

[Piffy]

I was reading into the rules more than I should have and came across a query that admittedly won't go over well. I understand it might not be in the spirit of the game but RAW I believe a spyrer leading a Secundus Incursion Gang with Escher as it's selected gang can take an Escher Cutter. These are my Points. I would like your thoughts if this is allowed under the rules or not.

-An Escher cutter says "That all Escher leaders, champions and prospects add the following wargear to their equipment list."

-Under Secundus Incursion Gangs the relevant points are that first you choose a base gang, in this case Escher.
You can take their fighters, equipment etc but the important part is "and it is treated as the base gang in addition to being a secundan incursion gang.

-Next it describes that instead of their normal leader, you use either an orrus, malcadon, jakara or yeld spyrer. "This fighter type changes their type to Leader and gains the Leader Apart and Secundan Incursion Gang Leader Rules.

Under the core rulebook on fighter types there is a section about disregarding the name of the fighter for its type. An Escher queen, van sar prime, orlock captain etc are all considered as Leaders and says this rule is universal to all such models regardless of their type

And of course a spyrer is limited to the wargear in their equipment list. That's under each individual spyrer, and is not a rule under the gang equipment for a spyrer gang.

But from my understanding, the spyrer is a Leader now, and is part of a Secundan Incursion Gang which counts as both an Escher gang and a Secundan Incursion Gang. Therefore, I believe they are now considered an Escher leader and being an Escher leader can add the Escher cutter to their wargear list and as part of their list, can take that wargear. P

Now hands full rule for being mounted limiting you to 2 weapons means an orrus is out because they have 3. While it can't be combined with equipment that affects movement, I think that is more relevant to you cannot use the rules for both, not that you can't legally take both in regards to the yeld or the malcadon. A malcadon might lose the benefits of paired, but you can build a shooty malcadon, the only problem being not that they can't be shooty, but that their base gun is mediocre.
And a jakara is the real winner because they now get a good gun, movement 9 and can basically fly.

RAW, would you allow this or is there a relevant rule I am missing?

 

[Heart of Storm]

Would need to understand the specifics of the "Leader Apart" and "Secundan Gang Leader Rules" first.

Also the gear selection rules for Spryers.

 

[Scabs]

Leading a gang ain't the same as becoming a member of that gang. For instance, don't agree you could Goliath genesmith a Spyrer, or give a Spyrer Orlock Legendary names.

 

[Beebopalulla]

Leading a gang ain't the same as becoming a member of that gang. For instance, don't agree your could Goliath genesmith a Spyrer, or give a Spyrer Orlock Legendary names.

Or Changing your house. You do not become an Escher while being an imperial house of Helmawr menber. Yolanda Catallus once led a Escher gang but remain a Catallus.

​

You may houserules that or you may make a nemesis base on a Orrus riding an Escher cutter but not as the way you describe it. At least that i understand IT.

 

[MusingWarboss]

You do not become an Escher while being an imperial house of Helmawr menber. Yolanda Catallus once led a Escher gang but remain a Catallus.

Here comes the Heresy fluff again!!

Spyrer can partner with a Van Saar gang…

Spyrer: err, wait, where did lowly plebs like you get all of this expensive and rare tech from?

VS Fighter: ummmm. We… just… found? It? *panics*

Spyrer: In Hive Primus? Why the hell are we all out here looking for archeotech when there’s hoverboards and whatever that brain tenticle thing sticking out of your head is just lying about in the Underhive?

VS: …

Spyrer: I should be hunting you guys.

VS:

 

[Beebopalulla]

Here comes the Heresy fluff again!!

I guess there is sarcasm here but what is your point?

 

[MusingWarboss]

I guess there is sarcasm here but what is your point?

Same as has been spoken about many many times. Modern fluff has given gangs ridiculous power creep and things that should be forbidden in the imperium.

Which is fine as long as it’s kept fairly hush.

It can’t be that hush if your hooking up with minor nobles to go hunting.

The box comes with VS. They have a missing bit of Archeotech which gives them tech that looks on par with what the Spyrers have. I’m not sure in the type of society Necromunda has that would be appreciated - hence the skit.

You mention Escher. That Death Maiden tech would sure come in handy to spyrers.

While I personally don’t think spyrers should have access to house gear in game terms, except their own (don’t know what the rules say) the moment those nobles twig that tech exists they would kill them all and steal it.

 

[Beebopalulla]

Alright. Rule wise each entry of spyrer say they have acces to their specific wargear in the book of desolation. Nothing is said about them having acces to other wargear. The Hive secundus rulesbook said nothing about it too.

That why i mentioned the nemesis option or the house rules.

As for the miniature i have trouble imagining an Orrus rig on a jet bike but sure, why not.

 

[voidwyrm]

.... Under the core rulebook on fighter types there is a section about disregarding the name of the fighter for its type. An Escher queen, van sar prime, orlock captain etc are all considered as Leaders and says this rule is universal to all such models regardless of their type ...

If it really says "Escher Leader", then I would say, that this is the point where the problem could be located: "Escher Leader" is a mix of part specific type (Escher) and a category (Leader). So,if it is as you say in your post, a spyrer Leader would NOT get the cut(ter), as he doesnt tick the (Escher) box, only the (Leader) box, and both must be true to get that equipment.

 

[Piffy]

Alright. Rule wise each entry of spyrer say they have acces to their specific wargear in the book of desolation. Nothing is said about them having acces to other wargear. The Hive secundus rulesbook said nothing about it too.

That why i mentioned the nemesis option or the house rules.

As for the miniature i have trouble imagining an Orrus rig on a jet bike but sure, why not.

I already mentioned. Every fighter says what gear it can and can't be equipped with. The spyrers each day they can be equipped with wargear from their list.
The Escher cutter specifically says they add that wargear to their list.

 

[Beebopalulla]

I already mentioned. Every fighter says what gear it can and can't be equipped with. The spyrers each day they can be equipped with wargear from their list.
The Escher cutter specifically says they add that wargear to their list.

I know you already mentioned it but i don't see how that Escher wargear is added to an Escher wargear list. Nothing said that's Escher Wargear is available to any leader that is not an Escher.

That how i see it. We can disagree i have no issue with that.

 

[Piffy]

If it really says "Escher Leader", then I would say, that this is the point where the problem could be located: "Escher Leader" is a mix of part specific type (Escher) and a category (Leader). So,if it is as you say in your post, a spyrer Leader would NOT get the cut(ter), as he doesnt tick the (Escher) box, only the (Leader) box, and both must be true to get that equipment.

I think if a leader is part of an Escher gang, they are an Escher Leader. And it specifically says in the Secundan incursion gang that it is both a gang of its base type (Escher) AND a Secundan incursion gang. Ergo, the spyrer in that gang is an Escher leader. It counts as an "Escher" gang.

You may as well say that an outcast gang with the Escher affiliation could not take an Escher cutter for their leader or champion.

 

[Piffy]

I know you already mentioned it but i don't see how that Escher wargear is added to an Escher wargear list. Nothing said that's Escher Wargear is available to any leader that is not an Escher.

That how i see it. We can disagree i have not issue with that.

It doesn't add itself to an Escher gang list though. It's just a wargear that is available to "all Escher leaders, champions and prospects" and if you want to be technical, then specifically speaking, it also says under Secundan incursion gangs they gain all fighters, weapons, wargear and options of the base gang.

I respect you wouldn't play it like that. Intention is important.

 

[Piffy]

Leading a gang ain't the same as becoming a member of that gang. For instance, don't agree your could Goliath genesmith a Spyrer, or give a Spyrer Orlock Legendary names.

This might be incredibly stupid of me saying, but as Secundan Incursion Gangs gain all the "fighters, weapons, wargear and OPTIONS" of the base gang, yeah the gang has access to gene smithing. And under genesmithing, it doesn't specify fighters by name (which for example, the van Saar ash wastes grav- cutter specifically says prime, augmek or Tek). It says what roles can take genesmithing and how much, and again the core rulebook has a specific rule for fighter types.

So yes, from my understanding, a leader in a Goliath gang can take genesmithing, regardless of what the leader is.

That's incredibly dumb, and I would never run it myself. But by the same rules it's allowed. :/

***** Definitely wrong on this. Its limited to fighters that are ganger, juve or prospect, or gang heirarchy, which spyrers are none of those.******

 

[voidwyrm]

I think if a leader is part of an Escher gang, they are an Escher Leader. ...

Well, RAW the leader isnt part of an Escher gang, they are specifically the Leader of an incursion Gang, nothing else. So the option isnt there for him.

 

[Piffy]

Well, RAW the leader isnt part of an Escher gang, they are specifically the Leader of an incusrion Gang, nothing else. So the option isnt there for him.

It says under Secundan gangs that they are both a Secundan gang and the base gang.

 

[Piffy]

Leading a gang ain't the same as becoming a member of that gang. For instance, don't agree your could Goliath genesmith a Spyrer, or give a Spyrer Orlock Legendary names.

I apologize, I replied you could technically gene smith, but i reread it and gene smithing applies to gang Hierarchy models. Spyrer leaders don't benefit from gang heirarchy. The rest still stands about the Escher cutter though.

 

[voidwyrm]

It says under Secundan gangs that they are both a Secundan gang and the base gang.

Thats not 100% correct, although I can of course see the point. It is only "treated" as the base gang. But in fact it "is" only a Secundan Incursion Gang. So the gang would get the same "treatment": geting the option to get a bike, IF there were an escher leader. But they arent an esher gang, so their leader isnt an esher leader.

 

[Piffy]

Thats not 100% correct, although I can of course see the point. It is only "treated" as the base gang. But in fact it "is" only a Secundan Incursion Gang. So the gang would get the same "treatment": geting the option to get a bike, IF there were an escher leader. But they arent an esher gang, so their leader isnt an esher leader.

So you're saying then that the champion and prospect of an Escher gang in a Secundan gang are also not Escher champions or prospects? Because they aren't part of an Escher gang by what you just said.

 

[voidwyrm]

No, that is not what I am saying. Lets say the prospects: They read in their unit entry "esher wyld runner (prospect)" so of course they are still esher.