N18 Spyrers in Campaigns

[Banjulhu]

So after getting my copy of Book of Desolation I've started trying to work out how to make the Spyrers function in campaigns and so far the answer is I don't think I can. I think were heading for another Enforcers in a campaign kind of problem again.

At a base 1k game they have a bit of an uphill struggle but with a canny pilot I think they can at least win games but when advances and gang expansions etc happen they no longer have much of a chance.

After a few games in a campaign it's common for House gangs to start rocking things like Sv 3+ plasmagun champs with falshoods or Sv 3+ melee monsters with falsehoods or brutes. Then as the campain progesses further those things crop up more and more and thanks to the very limited weapon options often underwhelming upgrades that the Spyrers get they become a gang with an absolute cap on numbers with weapons that are at best on par with the toys the "normal" gangs bring (I dread the day I have to face a tooled up nact-ghul or similar).

Throw on top of that the utterly devestating problem that the spyrers just can recover from a model being killed because the only time you will get new members is at the two break points on the Terror Level and amazingly loosing 25% to 40% of your starting gang value really makes achieving that close to impossible (even the Enforcers got something thrown in to give them a break when their overcosted baseline models died).

 

[voidwyrm]

I totally agree, that the Spyrer-gang seems to be pretty uselss very late in a campagne. But at least they start strong.

But to be honest, in my oppinion... as soon, as the Sv 3+ plasmagun champs with falshoods start flooding the field, the fun is over no matter the Gang you take.
So, I would suggest 3 things anyway: 1. To limit the credits in a dominion-campaign. 2. To limit the trading post to what is on the warhammer community site. 3. To let one fighter resurrect for free every 3 or so games.

But if you like playing "those campaings", I would consider a normal Gang with a Spyrer leader. These seem pretty cool too. And like that you could have the nacht-ghuls yourself... and "Gambling Den"-your Opponents into oblivion...

 

[Banjulhu]

Our core running plan for Dominion campaigns has been to remove the gambling den entirely for the same reason we ban the history of violence card.

 

[Banjulhu]

An aspect that did not come to mind initially about Spyrers longevity but may actually prove important is that there are a lot of scenarios in necromunda that limit model numbers.

A custom 10 match will favour the normal gang but a random d3+3 games is the Spyrers to take.

Also something else we noticed over the first couple of games is that Spyrers have a an edge in Zone Mortalis because of their ability to double activate themselves into strong positions in turn 1

 

[Spearhavok]

An aspect that did not come to mind initially about Spyrers longevity but may actually prove important is that there are a lot of scenarios in necromunda that limit model numbers.

A custom 10 match will favour the normal gang but a random d3+3 games is the Spyrers to take.

This is something I've been wondering about, but maybe I'm overly concerned?
I'm putting together a campaign right now, but am unlikely to get a chance beforehand to see Spyrers in action. And with them being a hot new thing, I won't be at all surprised if I see multiple Spyrer gangs show up for what is basically a modified Dominion/Dome Rush campaign. So...
Do I need to worry about house ruling crew selection a bit (activations rather than fighters or something), or are they going to be fighting such an uphill battle that they don't need any controls in place?
I'd appreciate input from anybody that's actually seen them in action so far.

 

[Banjulhu]

I think the jury is still out on their overall power level and they are trending up in my ratings but I think they will never hist the same level of Van Saar Oops All 2+ to hit Plasma and Goliath Genesmithing abuse gangs.

Where I think you will see Spyrers being a "problem" is with newer players because their double activation shtick will likely lead to gotcha moments.

However I would say that changing the crew selection rules like you suggest just makes every scenario an uphill slog for the spyrer players rather than them having a fifty-fifty mix of good and bad.

 

[voidwyrm]

And dont forget, that although they have 2x the activations, 3/4 of them only get t3 and a 5+ in the beginning. IF you catch them, they have a problem. (But of course in the rare "random D3 crew" scenario, the "2 x Orrus plus Leader - gang" will win most of the time.)

 

[Banjulhu]

Before we started off our current campaign we did mull over the problems Spyrers could raise along with how they would play alongside well known issues with the campaign rules.

In the end we went with players starting with 1250 creds but are not using rackets or territories (we went for an expedition theme) which means a bit more equipment in the starting gang but much slower weapon race because we have limited how much a player can make per game although I don't think we've hit the sweet spot just yet.

 

["Technic" Al]

Throw on top of that the utterly devestating problem that the spyrers just can recover from a model being killed because the only time you will get new members is at the two break points on the Terror Level and amazingly loosing 25% to 40% of your starting gang value really makes achieving that close to impossible (even the Enforcers got something thrown in to give them a break when their overcosted baseline models died).

Have you considered permitting more chances for extra Spyrers?
For example, in campaigns that have a settlement-style mechanic, allow a new spyrer on the settlement double-six roll; Or in a law and misrule campaign, base it off of the reputation table (as they won't be able to use the hangers on and bounty hunters on there anyway).
An extra Spyrer showing up during Downtime is also on the cards.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

And dont forget, that although they have 2x the activations, 3/4 of them only get t3 and a 5+ in the beginning. IF you catch them, they have a problem. (But of course in the rare "random D3 crew" scenario, the "2 x Orrus plus Leader - gang" will win most of the time.)

T3 and a 5+ save is all most gangs have to start with as well and often without the armour. They may have half the numbers of another gang but they are mostly all champion level fighters that act with four actions.
Take an Orrus with Fast Shot and 2 Bolt launchers. Since they are side arms two can be fired at once via Twin Guns Blazing. That is a potential 8 BS4+ 20" S4 AP-1 Rapid Fire 1 shots. In one turn. From one fighter. That's enough to eviscerate almost an entire gang starting out.

Used well most of the other Spyrers can do similarly devastating damage early on and keep other gangs with a large chunk of their fighters constantly in recovery at best for most of a phase.
If champions and leaders are stuck constantly shelling out for medical escort actions that drains the available funds for the gangs normal purchases.

 

[Majortrauma]

T3 and a 5+ save is all most gangs have to start with as well and often without the armour. They may have half the numbers of another gang but they are mostly all champion level fighters that act with four actions.
Take an Orrus with Fast Shot and 2 Bolt launchers. Since they are side arms two can be fired at once via Twin Guns Blazing. That is a potential 8 BS4+ 20" S4 AP-1 Rapid Fire 1 shots. In one turn. From one fighter. That's enough to eviscerate almost an entire gang starting out.

Used well most of the other Spyrers can do similarly devastating damage early on and keep other gangs with a large chunk of their fighters constantly in recovery at best for most of a phase.
If champions and leaders are stuck constantly shelling out for medical escort actions that drains the available funds for the gangs normal purchases.

I dont know about this discussion, it feels a little alarmist.

I feel that listing all the optimal situations for a 350 point model as apposed to the average, doesn't give a balanced good faith discussion.
it would be like stating that a 240pt van saar with a heavy plasma cannon and fast shot (2 activations) could easily obliterate on a 2+ an entire gang with 36" str8 d3 ap-2 blast3. which he can, and we should do something about it.
I have felt the wrath of a well placed blast charge from a wrecker hitting my whole gang because the scenario forced me into the middle.

most of the battles will seldom have these perfect scenarios, though it's not impossible because of luck/skill/decisions.
A counter discussion that is also skewed, could be that the spyrer gang gets melta-gunned or serpent fanged in one round and is removed from the roster. Now the 1000pt spyrer gang is fighting an uphill battle, with 2 models left and a dead 350pt Orrus. Which they wont be able to get back for a long time. and we should do something about it.

But i feel that these situations are unlikely to be the average battle, and more due to Luck/skill/decisions.

i'm not saying that the spyrer do or dont have problems. but in a game as questionably balanced as necromunda, where one gang can snowball out of control due to luck/skill/decisions which can lead many gangs feeling similarly broken and or overpowered. I have a friend whose just better then me, and makes everything feel overpowered.
I'm Just saying it would help the overall discussion more, by being even handed at the moment on a faction that has just come out. And that also plays very differently then all the rest.

 

[Banjulhu]

A plasma cannon can never be fast shot thankfully but I still agree with the sentiment.

More games are needed and both in stand alone and campaign play to see where and how the Spyrers as a gang both excels and is found lacking.

Like I've said elsewhere I think they are definitely on the upper end of the power scale but I dont think they are as NPE inducing as the never miss Van Saar plasma spam that tends to define campaigns (a play style I will add that has been made even more egregiously over the top with the addition of standard rules that will let a Van Saar gang trivially buy in up to 8 BS 3+ gangers with plasma guns during a campaign)

 

[Banjulhu]

One oddity I noticed this morning is that the tier 1 Yeld Rig upgrade is +1 Mv which adds 20 credits to the value of the fighter because suit evolutions have a set value.

Increasing Mv by 1 with XP only adds 10 credits to the Yeld's value.

The lesson here is spend 5xp on the +1Mv so that you can jump tier 1 and go straight to a tier 2 Yeld Rig

 

[Majortrauma]

One oddity I noticed this morning is that the tier 1 Yeld Rig upgrade is +1 Mv which adds 20 credits to the value of the fighter because suit evolutions have a set value.

Increasing Mv by 1 with XP only adds 10 credits to the Yeld's value.

The lesson here is spend 5xp on the +1Mv so that you can jump tier 1 and go straight to a tier 2 Yeld Rig

arn't the rig's bonus added on top since it's equipment? like the orlock partial/full servo harness? i want to assume that'd be read as intended

 

[Banjulhu]

Good point.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

arn't the rig's bonus added on top since it's equipment? like the orlock partial/full servo harness? i want to assume that'd be read as intended

Those Servo harnesses (they are not unique to Orlock by the way) explicitly state they can take the stats over the max as a temporary modifider.
No other equipment grants a similar bonus that states it boosts stats over the maximum. They just say it Increases their move characteristic by x. Or in the case of Mounts like cutters or dirt bikes replace the charactisic with a fixed value whilst using the mount.

Servo harnesses are the only exception to the max stat rules. Since Desolation is Post Core book it is assumed that it's content is based on the Core rules and the Yeld rig does not say the movement bonus is an exception.

 

[Banjulhu]

Those Servo harnesses (they are not unique to Orlock by the way) explicitly state they can take the stats over the max as a temporary modifider.
No other equipment grants a similar bonus that states it boosts stats over the maximum. They just say it Increases their move characteristic by x. Or in the case of Mounts like cutters or dirt bikes replace the charactisic with a fixed value whilst using the mount.

Servo harnesses are the only exception to the max stat rules. Since Desolation is Post Core book it is assumed that it's content is based on the Core rules and the Yeld rig does not say the movement bonus is an exception.

After looking at the wording of characteristics section in the rules I'm inclined to agree with that take, whether its the intention is an entirely different question.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

After looking at the wording of characteristics section in the rules I'm inclined to agree with that take, whether its the intention is an entirely different question.

On the Yeld specifically, it is M7-8 and has 4 activations and flight (near enough) that is 28-32" ignoring most terrain. With Sprint that's 42-48 inches a turn. How much more speed does it really need anyway?

 

[Majortrauma]

On the Yeld specifically, it is M7-8 and has 4 activations and flight (near enough) that is 28-32" ignoring most terrain. With Sprint that's 42-48 inches a turn. How much more speed does it really need anyway?

so using that as a point. would you say the increased stat is basically a backup in case you get hurt and lose the stat due to an injury role?
kind of like a WS 2+ character charging from behind a wall would get a -1, but if they had a chain sword, it would bring them back to the 2+ roll again?

trying to figure out why some of these suites give stat boosts instead of unique features in areas that can already be increased with normal advancements. And if what you say is the way, then i'd like to think the suite would act as a form of temporary performance insurance policy until you can fix the glitch.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

so using that as a point. would you say the increased stat is basically a backup in case you get hurt and lose the stat due to an injury role?
kind of like a WS 2+ character charging from behind a wall would get a -1, but if they had a chain sword, it would bring them back to the 2+ roll again?

Hunting Rig Augmentation Power Boost Table page 28 Book of Desolation
" If the new Augmentation would increase a characteristic beyond it's maximum, increase the Augmentation level by an additional one". So if you max the Yelds move with XP first then get a power boost for the hunting rig it jumps to Tier 2 instead gaining it's ranged attack protection.

trying to figure out why some of these suites give stat boosts instead of unique features in areas that can already be increased with normal advancements. And if what you say is the way, then i'd like to think the suite would act as a form of temporary performance insurance policy until you can fix the glitch.

See my above quote, it would bump you up an extra Augmentation level instead. (Just on the hunting rigs for this point but it applies to weapons too), jumping straight to Tier 2 for the rig tends to unlock a unique or otherwise expensive feature. The Jakara will gain +1 A, a 12 xp upgrade otherwise. The Malcadon rig gives Carapace armour saves. The Orrus rig gets top shelf Field saves.
All for a measly credit increase of 20 credits and taking out 4 juves. You can quite easily unlock the special bits.