N18 Starting Delaque gang: optimized?

[Aulenback]

That's a good point. The way I'd interpret it is: you can capture a single fighter via takedown in addition to any captured via the serious injury chart.

Do you then replace the lasting injury roll with a 50% chance of being Captured? That seems extremely strong.

On the other hand, using it to replace the roll once someone rolls a Captured lasting injury from its normal 50% roll (3 or less) to instead a 50% roll (4 or more) seems ... extremely weak.

Or do you treat it like Webbed, and give a bonus to the roll resulting from Captured?

Best see what your Arbitrator suggests on this one, rather than just the opinion of any of us here, including me.

 

[HugeSamples]

Do you then replace the lasting injury roll with a 50% chance of being Captured? That seems extremely strong.

On the other hand, using it to replace the roll once someone rolls a Captured lasting injury from its normal 50% roll (3 or less) to instead a 50% roll (4 or more) seems ... extremely weak.

Or do you treat it like Webbed, and give a bonus to the roll resulting from Captured?

Best see what your Arbitrator suggests on this one, rather than just the opinion of any of us here, including me.

Whatever the existing rules for capturing are, Take Down would be one more on top of those (since there is no limit on the number of models you can capture now). i.e. you can capture any number of models via the normal routes, then Take Down is applied on top of that--up to a max of one additional model.

e.g.
Model with Take Down takes an enemy fighter out of action, roll for injury normally, then place that model aside. Then, at the end of the game, if the Delaque player won roll a d6 for each model in the take down pool. On a 4+ that model is potentially captured. Once all models have been rolled for the Delaque player picks one potentially captured model to be captured.

That said Take Down is very strong and feels bad for both players IMO. It really needs a rework/changed to do something else.

 

[Aulenback]

Well, since you are Ralphinator's Arbitrator in the campaign he is joining, your version would be the version being used by your campaign that he is joining, and should be the version borne in mind while he builds his gang.

If someone else were actually going to be his Arbitrator, they might have interpreted it quite differently than you choose to do, but that's why it is important to check with the campaign Arbitrator on this one.

 

[ralphinator]

While strong, doesn't takedown seem swingy and "win-more"?

 

[HugeSamples]

While strong, doesn't takedown seem swingy and "win-more"?

While it doesn't help you win the current game you are playing it helps you win the greater war and generate you credits while doing so.

I.e. if you capture a leader or champion you either:
- play a rescue mission where your opponent risks more people getting captured.
- sell the captured model for 50% value, enemy gang is -1 leader or champion and you are up a lot of credits.
- sell the captured model back for 75%+ value, you are up a lot more credits.
- if you capture an unsanctioned psyker or equivalent model you get 100% of the credit value.

Any of the above scenarios are good for you.

It's credit generation--like fixer--but in a more negative play experience way--captured is more or less the same as dead.

I stay away from it personally, but if you group is going "sweaty" then you might want to consider it.

 

[BranBuccarcher]

If you are taking a "take down" phantom a web gauntlet and flechette make a great charging combo that can usually down nearly anything charged bar genesmithed goliaths. Kept as a counter unit than sent ranging ahead, will have your opponents avoid coming anywhere near his threat bubble or can supervise your juves.

Would strongly suggest upgrading the two autopistol ones to ghosts with autoguns as the extra range and better bs can really make a difference, I ran a list with just shadows to min max and found I was always out gunned, one of the necht ghuls could take a shiver sword and you've paid most the difference.

The other big question is why pay for a leaders stat line and then just use him as overseer when you could start using him and ditch the second champ and spread the spare cash out?
Overseer is for when you have heavy weapons in a team and no access to suspensory.

 

[HugeSamples]

The other big question is why pay for a leaders stat line and then just use him as overseer when you could start using him and ditch the second champ and spread the spare cash out?
Overseer is for when you have heavy weapons in a team and no access to suspensory.

I personally don't like overseer as a skill, but I can see the purpose in a Delaque gang:
- Delaque leaders are relatively cheap compared to other leaders.
- their stat line is more or less identical to a phantom's.
- you can do web-weapon shenanigans.

are those reasons good enough to lose a well stated model with good weapon selection?

In my opinion, no.
It is much better paired with a heavy weapon like you pointed out, which Delaque don't have native access to outside of the...lol...heavy flamer.

Would strongly suggest upgrading the two autopistol ones to ghosts with autoguns as the extra range and better bs can really make a difference, I ran a list with just shadows to min max and found I was always out gunned, one of the necht ghuls could take a shiver sword and you've paid most the difference.

So much this. Trying to min/max using Shadows just doesn't seem to pan out well in practice. Experience is just so hard to get (even with the better experience gains from the 2023 core book update).

Ghosts, while not flashy, are just solid pieces.

 

[BranBuccarcher]

The thing about trying to use overseer with a template is you need to move that unequipped model up every other turn to keep the use of the skill after turn one, where as a plasma gun can shoot every turn till it's out of ammo...

I want my opponents to fear my leader model more than my nacht ghuls as it keeps them occupied

Edit how I would make a list as close to what you had and be meta with no armour

The uncompleted

Delaque (HoS) gang with a rating of 1000 by BranBuccarcher

yaktribe.games

 

[HugeSamples]

Seems good, but why dodge on one of the nacht-ghuls over spring up on both?

 

[BranBuccarcher]

Just cause I try not to put to many duplicates of skills if I can and dodging the shot on a 6 is about as likely as me making an armour save if they have been wounded and avoids the pin if successful, but mainly cause i was trying to be different from first choice....

 

[Beebopalulla]

mainly cause i was trying to be different from first choice....

What was direction for the second choice then?

 

[BranBuccarcher]

Thinking about it dodge may be the better skill in this case as it stops the hit from happening, spring up would be dependent on whether they survived being wounded, as there is no armour on anyone...
Both have same direction although you would have to be careful of making sure the shiv swords targets are out of Los of back up as the power on sword will light you up after cc if you playing in the dark.

 

[HugeSamples]

avoids the pin if successful

Pretty sure dodge doesn't mitigate pinning.

 

[BranBuccarcher]

If you dodged being hit how can you be pinned?

 

[HugeSamples]

realism aside, it's because it's triggered off a successful wound, not hit.

Dodge
If this fighter suffers a wound from a ranged or close combat attack, roll a d6. On a 6, the attack is dodged and has no further effect; otherwise, continue to make a save or resolve the wound as normal. If the model dodges a weapon that uses a blast marker or flame template, a roll of 6 does not automatically cancel the attack--instead, it allows the fighter to move up to 2" before seeing if they are hit. They cannot move within 1" of an enemy fighter.

Core Rulebook page 256

example 1:
you are hit with a ranged attack -> you are pinned -> wound roll is successful -> dodge roll is successful -> no wound and the chain stops.

example 2:
you are hit with a ranged attack -> you are pinned -> wound roll is unsuccessful -> no wound and the chain stops.

In example 2 you were not even allowed to make the dodge roll.

I'll admit the wording on the template/blast part of the skill makes the intent confusing, as it lets you rewind time to maybe get out of the template/blast after being wounded to negate both the wound and hit.

 

[BranBuccarcher]

I will admit we have not been playing dodge in such a spasticated way, we simply once a hit taken roll a d6 on 6 counts as miss and game continues as usual from there...
The idea that you have been hit in the first place says you can't have dodged at all, but then there are multiple examples of idiotic rules written in this game.

 

[HugeSamples]

there are multiple examples of idiotic rules written in this game

Indeed.

 

[Aulenback]

The "Dodge happens after the Wound and therefore after hit and pin" gets complicated by

If the model dodges a weapon that uses a blast marker or flame template, a roll of 6 does not automatically cancel the attack--instead, it allows the fighter to move up to 2" before seeing if they are hit.

So a successful Dodge against a non-template or blast weapon ... cancels the attack. Does a cancelled attack pin? One might reasonably think not. But also it prevents any further effects, after a successful roll to wound, at which point they should already be pinned. Heck, the wording doesn't even say that the fighter doesn't lose the wound.
And for blasts it affects the attack "before seeing if they are hit." But is rolled after a roll for Wounds. Sigh.

 

[BranBuccarcher]

Aye I must have automatically rewritten it in my head to work properly, shall have to check skills again before recommending from trees I rarely use, poor Escher...

 

[HugeSamples]

As @BranBuccarcher pointed out this is a poorly written rule and you should probably talk to your arbitrator to figure out how your group wants to play it.

As it's written there are 2 clauses:

If this fighter suffers a wound from a ranged or close combat attack, roll a d6. On a 6, the attack is dodged and has no further effect; otherwise, continue to make a save or resolve the wound as normal.

"No further effect" implies that effects that have already taken place, such as pinning, stay in effect.

example 1:
you are hit with a ranged attack -> you are pinned -> wound roll is successful -> dodge roll is successful -> no wound and the chain stops.

example 2:
you are hit with a ranged attack -> you are pinned -> wound roll is unsuccessful -> no wound and the chain stops.

If the model dodges a weapon that uses a blast marker or flame template, a roll of 6 does not automatically cancel the attack--instead, it allows the fighter to move up to 2" before seeing if they are hit. They cannot move within 1" of an enemy fighter.

this is where things get wonky, and muddies the water for what the intent--pinning mitigation? an extra armor save? both?--of dodge is.

example 3:
you are hit with a template/blast -> you are pinned -> wound roll is unsuccessful -> no wound and the chain stops

example 4:
you are hit with a template/blast -> you are pinned -> wound roll is successful -> dodge roll is successful -> move up to 2" -> you still under the template/blast -> apply wounds.

example 5:
you are hit with a template/blast -> you are pinned -> wound roll is successful -> dodge roll is successful -> move up to 2" -> you are not under the template/blast -> cancel the whole attack--i.e. you were never hit in the first place.

disclaimer: It's been a while since I've looked up when pinning actually occurs in the chain, so it's possible I'm wrong.