N18 Starting Delaque gang: optimized?

[Beebopalulla]

you were never hit in the first place.

Then the pining happen only if you are hit and there's no dodge?

I m not sure I understand that last sentence.

Edit: I moved my answer to another topic because it's getting out of topic.

 

[HugeSamples]

If the model dodges a weapon that uses a blast marker or flame template, a roll of 6 does not automatically cancel the attack--instead, it allows the fighter to move up to 2" before seeing if they are hit. They cannot move within 1" of an enemy fighter.

The whole template clause is confusing to me. Like for it to trigger at all you need to be:

- under the template (hit, and therefore most likely pinned).
- wounded by the weapon.

if you successfully dodge, then you get to move your fighter to possibly not be hit by the template anymore, and thus not pinned and not wounded.

Unlike the first clause for non-templated attacks where you would still be pinned even if you succeeded the dodge.

i.e. one of these things is not like the other .

 

[BranBuccarcher]

Sorry I opened a can of threadworms..... ;')

 

[Aulenback]

"No further effect" implies that effects that have already taken place, such as pinning, stay in effect.

Awkwardly, effects that have already taken place include not only pinning, but successfully wounding. It really is poorly written.

The INTENT is pretty clear that at least the wounding doesn't happen. But that isn't even what is written. No further effect after the successful wound still leaves the successful wound having happened. Which is obviously not the intent.

So... how much of the attack is cancelled by Dodge? That becomes the question. And the writing doesn't really say. And the FAQ doesn't really clarify.

The armour save is definitely prevented by a successful Dodge roll, because that's "further."
Injury roll (if applicable) is definitely prevented by a successful Dodge roll (because that too is "further").
Is the caused Wound cancelled? Because that is "before" rather than "further."
Is the pinning cancelled? Because that too is "before" rather than "further."
Is being hit cancelled? Because that is also "before" rather than "further."
Is the attack cancelled? Because while the wording under template weapons suggests it is, if not a blast or template weapon, it too is "before" rather than "further."

Going strictly by timing, as some of us here do want to try, means
1. The model was hit. Yes, even if the successful Dodge roll means they are moved to outside of a template area and thus never hit.
2. The model is Pinned. Pinning happens before the Dodge roll, and thus is not "further effects."
3. The model is Wounded and loses a wound. The Wound roll happens before the Dodge roll, and thus is not "further effects."
4. There is no armour save against that caused wound, because armour saves are "further effects" after the timing of the Dodge roll.
5. There is no Injury roll, because injury rolls are "further effects" after the timing of the Dodge skill.
6. There is no test for Blaze or Rad-Phage etc, because those are "further effects" after the timing of the Dodge skill. Despite counting as having been hit.

Bluntly, that's a mess. Not in "edge cases," but every time.

And then we get to the bit about how templates (unlike other hits implied?) are not immediately canceled. Plus the template Dodge explicitly retroactively changes whether they were hit in the first place - but also is only made against Wounding hits

 

[Vonvilkee]

The timing was a bit off. Your number three had two separate steps and needed to be split up. Long story short yes pinning happens, and other after wounding could happen but the wound reduction is prevented.

Lightning on fire, corpse grinders getting better (if this is on wounds not OoA can't remember for sure) could all happen.

Super silly but RAW typically is especially in the loosey goosey world of GW rules. Not to derail things but I hate some of the extra words, field saves are described as saving hits but then you can't use armour too so really it is after wounding DUMB, and then don't get me started on the FAQ forcing an attack after charging instead of allowing for multiple combat ganging up...

Going strictly by timing, as some of us here do want to try, means
1. The model was hit. Yes, even if the successful Dodge roll means they are moved to outside of a template area and thus never hit.
2. The model is Pinned. Pinning happens before the Dodge roll, and thus is not "further effects."
3. The model is Wounded. The Wound roll happens before the Dodge roll, and thus is not "further effects."
4. There is no armour save against that caused wound, because armour saves are "further effects" after the timing of the Dodge roll.

This is where the wounds characteristic would be reduced. Armour saves happen after wounds but before reducing the number of wounds a model has. A successful save stops the reduction.

5. There is no Injury roll, because injury rolls are "further effects" after the timing of the Dodge skill.
6. There is no test for Blaze or Rad-Phage etc, because those are "further effects" after the timing of the Dodge skill. Despite counting as having been hit.

Bluntly, that's a mess. Not in "edge cases," but every time.

 

[ralphinator]

I think you all have successfully convinced me to forgo overseer. The last list posted offers me everything that I was looking to include (two champions, a webgun specialist, a webpistol juve) and additionally offers me a stronger backbone with the two autogun gangers.

 

[BranBuccarcher]

Have a tinker with it, I would pose two other options;
A) Swap the plasmagun on LD for a flechette/web gauntlet combo plus either shotgun or long rifle depending on your terrain type.
B) downgrade on nachtghul to a shiver sword and put a grav gun on LD, which paired with overwatch could cause some fun board control issues for people.
Have you a chance for a test run of the gang?

Having nailed a 540cred Goliath LD on the charge Saturday, with my A equipped Phantom,
I would go option A and use the creds from your first game to think about extra toys at that point, especially if you arbi allows weapon swaps to stash.

 

[HugeSamples]

Grav guns and Overwatch pair together very well.

I'm also a fan of Iron Will on my leader (having an opponent bottle before you do is more often than not how you win a scenario). Usually I pair Iron Will with a long range weapon--Long Rifle, Plasma gun, etc--to keep it active.

I'm torn which I like more.