SWA Community Edition

rippounet

Ganger
Apr 29, 2016
169
228
48
Paris
So, just a few ideas to change SWA to get longer campaigns and add balance to the whole.
I think it may be ridiculously easy.

Income
SWA kill teams earn too much credits. One could simply use the territory system of Necromunda (changing the names of the territories) with the maintenance table. This should mechanically punish large kill teams like orks and genestealer cults and give an edge to small teams like harlequins and grey knights. But it should balance itself out in a campaign since recruiting is so much costlier for the small teams anyway. Plus, small teams will have a hard time exploiting all their territories...

Experience
Using the Necromunda system, the only trick is figuring out what the starting experience for each team member should be.
In order for Necromunda gangs to be playable I guess new recruits should start at 20+1D6 like gangers, experienced fighters should start at 40+1D6, leaders and specialists at 60+1D6, and marines/superhumans should start at 100+1D6. Mere humans learn quickly or die in the process!
The advance system from SWA is pretty good, and the skills have been well designed imho. Simply replace "scavenger" in the guerilla table with the old "fixer" skill.

Scenarios
Use gang ratings. The gang with the lowest rating rolls the die on the scenario table and gets to choose who is the attacker.
Scrap the +4 bonus for orks and genestealer cults in some scenarios. +1 or +2 is way enough.

Serious injury
The SWA table is a bit simplistic, but the problem with the Necromunda table is that there are no bionics in SWA to deal with specific injuries, so I'm not sure how to deal with that. Perhaps introduce rare items to SWA...
The problem I see is that the rare items tables from Necromunda are very random.
A simpler way of getting rare items like bionics for kill teams should perhaps be considered... I'd suggest something as simple as a generic rare equipment list with costly items, only one of which can be bought after each game. A few rare items from Necromunda could also go on that list (like smoke bombs and screamers). No access to weapons and equipements from other kill teams.
Necromunda gangs would still get the old tables. Locals from the hive are much better at finding and trading stuff!

Agents/mercenaries
That's the really tricky part since some agents are obviously more powerful than others. Nasty ones like terminators or ogryns should cost a lot of credits. At least 50, if not more. But figuring out the point cost would require a lot of playtesting.
Alternatively, perhaps one could simply say that a kill team needs to sacrifice one of its territories to hire a special agent (perhaps even two for the most brutal ones). Of course, everyone would get rid of the shitty territories without a second thought but 1) it may prove a bad idea if you lose a territory to an opponent later in the campaign, and 2) it's a way to hurt teams that are too wealthy since they'll be more reluctant to sacrifice decent territories.

Maximum size of kill teams

I'd add +1 to the maximum for small kill teams (harlequins, grey knights and 'nids), +2 to "standard ones," and keep the Genestealer cult and orks where they are (orks are numerous enough as it is).
Necromunda gangs would have no upper limit: the reputation and glory earned by mere humans is enough to attract the inhabitants of the hive to fight with them for their homeworld against xenos and heretics!
 
Please, tell me more. I'm thinking that switching to the pure necromunda campaign could be fun with some tweaking. (And I'm not sure no cross kill team weaponry would be necessary. Except nids. None would use a nid bit. Maybe a sword? And marines wouldn't sully themselves with xenos weaponry. But I'm sure an ork would steal a bolter) my biggest issues are compiling all this information together, and play testing. :p
 
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rippounet

Ganger
Apr 29, 2016
169
228
48
Paris
And I'm not sure no cross kill team weaponry would be necessary. Except nids. None would use a nid bit. Maybe a sword? And marines wouldn't sully themselves with xenos weaponry. But I'm sure an ork would steal a bolter) my biggest issues are compiling all this information together, and play testing. :p
The problem with cross kill team weaponry is that it's bloody hard to balance. Sure, in the lore orks and cultists would love to get their hands on a boltgun... Except in SWA, an ork shoota is pretty much better than a boltgun.
So it quickly gets complicated figuring out who should get what and at what cost...

(sorry for the double post, I originally intended to make a single answer but the warp someone intervened)
 

Insurgent

Gang Champion
Mar 17, 2016
469
500
103
Springfield OR
So, just a few ideas to change SWA to get longer campaigns and add balance to the whole.
I think it may be ridiculously easy.

Income
SWA kill teams earn too much credits. One could simply use the territory system of Necromunda (changing the names of the territories) with the maintenance table. This should mechanically punish large kill teams like orks and genestealer cults and give an edge to small teams like harlequins and grey knights. But it should balance itself out in a campaign since recruiting is so much costlier for the small teams anyway. Plus, small teams will have a hard time exploiting all their territories...

Experience
Using the Necromunda system, the only trick is figuring out what the starting experience for each team member should be.
In order for Necromunda gangs to be playable I guess new recruits should start at 20+1D6 like gangers, experienced fighters should start at 40+1D6, leaders and specialists at 60+1D6, and marines/superhumans should start at 100+1D6. Mere humans learn quickly or die in the process!
The advance system from SWA is pretty good, and the skills have been well designed imho. Simply replace "scavenger" in the guerilla table with the old "fixer" skill.

Scenarios
Use gang ratings. The gang with the lowest rating rolls the die on the scenario table and gets to choose who is the attacker.
Scrap the +4 bonus for orks and genestealer cults in some scenarios. +1 or +2 is way enough.

Serious injury
The SWA table is a bit simplistic, but the problem with the Necromunda table is that there are no bionics in SWA to deal with specific injuries, so I'm not sure how to deal with that. Perhaps introduce rare items to SWA...
The problem I see is that the rare items tables from Necromunda are very random.
A simpler way of getting rare items like bionics for kill teams should perhaps be considered... I'd suggest something as simple as a generic rare equipment list with costly items, only one of which can be bought after each game. A few rare items from Necromunda could also go on that list (like smoke bombs and screamers). No access to weapons and equipements from other kill teams.
Necromunda gangs would still get the old tables. Locals from the hive are much better at finding and trading stuff!

Agents/mercenaries
That's the really tricky part since some agents are obviously more powerful than others. Nasty ones like terminators or ogryns should cost a lot of credits. At least 50, if not more. But figuring out the point cost would require a lot of playtesting.
Alternatively, perhaps one could simply say that a kill team needs to sacrifice one of its territories to hire a special agent (perhaps even two for the most brutal ones). Of course, everyone would get rid of the shitty territories without a second thought but 1) it may prove a bad idea if you lose a territory to an opponent later in the campaign, and 2) it's a way to hurt teams that are too wealthy since they'll be more reluctant to sacrifice decent territories.

Maximum size of kill teams

I'd add +1 to the maximum for small kill teams (harlequins, grey knights and 'nids), +2 to "standard ones," and keep the Genestealer cult and orks where they are (orks are numerous enough as it is).
Necromunda gangs would have no upper limit: the reputation and glory earned by mere humans is enough to attract the inhabitants of the hive to fight with them for their homeworld against xenos and heretics!
I like how Kill Teams slot into the hive setting. Kill teams are military units in a complex and well supplied military hierarchy. They are in a race to complete their mission before other kill teams liquidate all the Promethium Caches / Isotopic Fuel Rods in that part ot the under hive. Necromunda Gangs and Inquisimunda Warbands are highly autonomous factions that act independently in the underhive and don't have supply chains or command hierarchies to deal with. They live off the land a lot more than Kill Teams do and fight for different reasons.

Injuries
Gangs and Warbands have more brutal serious injury charts which represent a lack of trauma triage.
Experience
Gang experience system represents a less hierarchical organizational structure.
Income
Gang territories must be worked by gangers or warriors and income is balanced by personnel numbers.
Equipment
Most of all gangs trade for equipment on an open market that randomly generates specialized equipment.
Mercs
Gangs also have their own selection of local mercenaries that they can hire.
Scenarios
The scenario table for gangs is more dynamic and clearly represents the antagonism of the underdog. This can be modified by various means and an alternate scenario table for outlaws expands the theater of operation for Gangs and Warbands. The kill team scenario table is more straightforward and strictly militaristic (no shoot out). Any scenario can happen when fighting urban guerrilla warfare with a Kill Team and it is anyone's guess who is attacker or defender in the fight will be.
Under dog / Giant killer bonus
These two post battle rules represent certain market forces in the hive such as machismo and street cred. Giant Killer Bonus is an income modifier that represents gangs moving into new market share and influence after defeating a more powerful gang. Since Kill Teams don't participate in the territory based income system this principle of underworld economics isn't a factor.
Underdogs is relevant to experience because warfare between gangs is much more personal than armies at war. The gangs facing each other all know each other's names and have the measure of each other from the start. One gangs conflict with another gang is something that is built on through a lifetime of violence. A gangs conflict with a Grey Knight Kill Team is far more difficult to measure oneself against simply due to the disparity between the two forces (there is a case for this with Spyres but those rich kids are still hive scum).
Outlaw
I see no reason why the ORB outlaw chart should change. It is a good measure of what a gang can get away with and still maintain territories. The -3 modifier for fighting forces of the imperium should stand and Space Marines, Guard, and Grey Knights should feel free to lodge a legitimate complaint with authorities if they feel so inclined.
Campaign Victor?
The first Kill Team to amass 15 Caches has met its military objective and is due for some r&r. The gang that ammases 15 Caches/Rods is has successfully defended its region of the underhive and brought its primary energy resources under its control.
Could this be the end? In Necromunda we aren't used to things ending. Gangs retire after a healthy run but this is always a matter of player discretion. Letting Kill Teams decide that the game is over doesn't sit well with me.
 
Last edited:

0604854

Ganger
Mar 25, 2012
56
21
8
So, just a few ideas to change SWA to get longer campaigns and add balance to the whole.
I think it may be ridiculously easy.

Income
SWA kill teams earn too much credits. One could simply use the territory system of Necromunda (changing the names of the territories) with the maintenance table. This should mechanically punish large kill teams like orks and genestealer cults and give an edge to small teams like harlequins and grey knights. But it should balance itself out in a campaign since recruiting is so much costlier for the small teams anyway. Plus, small teams will have a hard time exploiting all their territories...

Experience
Using the Necromunda system, the only trick is figuring out what the starting experience for each team member should be.
In order for Necromunda gangs to be playable I guess new recruits should start at 20+1D6 like gangers, experienced fighters should start at 40+1D6, leaders and specialists at 60+1D6, and marines/superhumans should start at 100+1D6. Mere humans learn quickly or die in the process!
The advance system from SWA is pretty good, and the skills have been well designed imho. Simply replace "scavenger" in the guerilla table with the old "fixer" skill.

Scenarios
Use gang ratings. The gang with the lowest rating rolls the die on the scenario table and gets to choose who is the attacker.
Scrap the +4 bonus for orks and genestealer cults in some scenarios. +1 or +2 is way enough.

Serious injury
The SWA table is a bit simplistic, but the problem with the Necromunda table is that there are no bionics in SWA to deal with specific injuries, so I'm not sure how to deal with that. Perhaps introduce rare items to SWA...
The problem I see is that the rare items tables from Necromunda are very random.
A simpler way of getting rare items like bionics for kill teams should perhaps be considered... I'd suggest something as simple as a generic rare equipment list with costly items, only one of which can be bought after each game. A few rare items from Necromunda could also go on that list (like smoke bombs and screamers). No access to weapons and equipements from other kill teams.
Necromunda gangs would still get the old tables. Locals from the hive are much better at finding and trading stuff!

Agents/mercenaries
That's the really tricky part since some agents are obviously more powerful than others. Nasty ones like terminators or ogryns should cost a lot of credits. At least 50, if not more. But figuring out the point cost would require a lot of playtesting.
Alternatively, perhaps one could simply say that a kill team needs to sacrifice one of its territories to hire a special agent (perhaps even two for the most brutal ones). Of course, everyone would get rid of the shitty territories without a second thought but 1) it may prove a bad idea if you lose a territory to an opponent later in the campaign, and 2) it's a way to hurt teams that are too wealthy since they'll be more reluctant to sacrifice decent territories.

Maximum size of kill teams

I'd add +1 to the maximum for small kill teams (harlequins, grey knights and 'nids), +2 to "standard ones," and keep the Genestealer cult and orks where they are (orks are numerous enough as it is).
Necromunda gangs would have no upper limit: the reputation and glory earned by mere humans is enough to attract the inhabitants of the hive to fight with them for their homeworld against xenos and heretics!
There are a couple of points that need to be addressed, first the in-game rules may be very much similar to Necromunda but the setting is not, these are not hive gangs vying for territory these are kill teams looking for promethium and carrying out missions, therefore copying and pasting an income system or allowing mercenaries is not what we should be looking at.

In terms of injuries yes copying and pasting from Necromunda (with tweaks seems logical), in terms of experience creating a balanced experience system is problematic, in Necromunda everything had at the very least similar stats and abilities, that is not the case with shadow war as we have a very much more diverse list of kill teams to choose from, we could go through each race assigning experience points but then you have a difficult task adding balance to the system.

So what are my suggestions:

Injuries- Amend from Necromunda

Experience- Each model rolls on a table with positive or negative modifiers based upon what the model does in the mission, any positive modifiers are then carried over to the next mission, the cost of your model would then increase depending on its advances (the same as when you re-recruit an old kill team member from a disbanded kill team), this will then allow us to create a giant killer bonus table with bonuses to promethium searching and exp table rolls..

Income- A more sophisticated table to determine how much promethium you get, promethium's sale price would be reduced to 50 (on the premise that when you sell old equipment etc. you always got 1/2), in addition instead of a 100 resupply income the kill team has a base of operations which provides a base income of 50 but you can use promethium to upgrade (see the heralds of ruin kill team campaign rules), the upgrades can ensure greater levels of income or in-game bonuses (so a medi bay for an injury reroll or a trauma lab to replace limbs with bionics or race specific count as bionics), in addition possibly as you upgrade your base you can also search for rare items (so a level 1 base gets 1 search for rare items, level 2 2 searches etc.), in addition left over points can be stored.

As for incorporating Necromunda gangs, they can use the new Exp and gang rating systems but would be allowed to use the old territory system (with again bonuses to income for underdogs).

As for ending the campaign I am going to provide a few options so players can decide how they end the campaign, whether its based on the size of base, promethium gathered, gang rating etc.

I am at that moment working on my 1st draft of the rules (just for shadow war kill teams, incorporating Necromunda gangs will come later).
 

0604854

Ganger
Mar 25, 2012
56
21
8
Ok then here are my thoughts on the EXP/Advance system:

At the end of the game each model rolls on either of these tables to determine whether they advance, if they fail the advance roll then any POSITIVE modifiers carry over:

Roll D6
Specialists & Leaders - Advance on 8+
Modifiers (they are cumulative):
Winning Leader +1
Per unsaved wound cause +1
Holding a loot counter at the end of the game +1
The model achieved the objective in "hit and run" +1
Surviving +1 (even if taken out of action)
For taking a model out of action with the "bounty" special rule +2 (including if they move from down to out of action)
Winning leader and your kill team took out at least 3 models out of action and 3 times the amount of opponents models were taken out of action than your own. +1
-1 More than 6 Advances

Non Specialist/Leaders - Advance on 7+
Modifiers (they are cumulative):
Per unsaved wound cause +1
Holding a loot counter at the end of the game +1
The model achieved the objective in "hit and run" +1
Surviving +1 (even if taken out of action)
For taking a model out of action with the "bounty" special rule +2 (including if they move from down to out of action)
More than 4 Advances -1
More than 11 Advances -1

Also on calculating gang rating:
After a character advances adjust the points value of the kill team member depending on whether they gained a stats increase (+15 points to the models value) or Skill (add 25 points to the models value)

Gang rating will then just be based on the kill teams points value (special operatives add 100 to the kill teams value for that mission)

Giant Killer modifiers to experience tables (still not sure on at the moment):

Difference in ratings:
Lower by:
0-49 0
50-149 +1
150-499 +2
500-999 +3
1000+ +4

Any feedback would be great
 
Last edited:

0604854

Ganger
Mar 25, 2012
56
21
8
Income System:

Any left over points can be stored in your kill teams stash to be used in future.

Selling promethium- promethium is worth 50 points when selling it.

Each Kill team starts with a base camp which they can then upgrade to a higher base level or upgrade it's facilities, you can only upgrade your base level by one after each game and your facilities can only upgrade once after each game, when upgrading please note that you must have already purchased any prerequisite upgrades in order to purchase the base level/facility upgrade:

To upgrade your base level simply pay the upgrade cost, please note you upgrade your base after you receive any income from the previous mission, upgrading your base can also entitle you to rare item rolls.

Base level Post game income Upgrade Cost Rare Item Rolls prerequisite
Base Camp 50 Points Starting base 0
Forward Base 75 Points 2 Promethium 1
Main Base 100 Points 1 Promethium 2 Forward Base
Command Centre 125 Points 1 Promethium 3 Main Base
Stronghold 150 Points 1 Promethium 4 Command Centre

Facility Upgrades
Upgrade Effect Cost prerequisite
Comms Relay +1 to reinforcement rolls and +1 to sound the alarm rolls 50 Points Forward Base
Medical Facilities Reroll 1 serious injury roll 50 Points Forward Base
Recon Satellite +1/-1 to roll for 1st turn 75 Points Comms Relay
Critical Injury Centre May purchase replacement limbs Etc. Rules same as Necromunda Bionics,
instead of cost being +3D6 it is just the same cost as Necromunda book +10
Shield Generator T6 2W model that cannot move shoot, WS0 with no A etc.
3" 5+inv bubble.
Training Facilities The Kill team can take one extra specialist (this does not increase maximum
overall team size)
Promethium Refinery The sale price of promethium is increase by 25 points, you may purchase the
facility more than once (but not in the post-game phase) each time increasing
the price of promethium by 25 up to a maximum of 125 points per promethium.
Psi Shield Shield Generator now also put a -1 modifier to psychic powers that affect models
in 6" of the gernator
Gun Turret A T6 2W model that cannot move, 0 WS and A etc. has BS2 and can be equiped with
Basic and special weapons from the kill teams armoury (at points cost shown), the weapon
can be twin-linked adding 50% (rounding up) to the weapons cost.
 
Last edited:

0604854

Ganger
Mar 25, 2012
56
21
8
Injuries (amended from Necromunda):

11-15: DEAD. All the weapons and equipment carried by the fighter are lost. A roll of 11 is also classed as high impact so cannot be modified.



16: MULTIPLE INJURIES The fighter isn't dead but has suffered many serious wounds. Roll a further D3+1 times on this chart. All Dead, Multiple Injuries, Captured and Full Recovery results must be rolled again.



21: INFECTED WOUND The fighter eventually recovers but it takes time for his agonising wounds to fully heal. The model must miss the next D3 games.



22: CHEST WOUND The fighter has been badly wounded in the chest. He recovers but is weakened by the injury and his Toughness characteristic is reduced by -1.



23: LEG WOUND The fighter has smashed a leg. He recovers from his injuries but he can no longer move as quickly. The fighter’s Movement characteristic is reduced by -1. Randomly determine which leg has been hurt.



24: ARM WOUND The fighter has smashed one of his arms. The fighter’s Strength characteristic is reduced by -1. Randomly determine which arm has been hit. Bear in mindsome combat weapons use the fighter’s own Strength.



25: HEAD WOUND A serious head injury leaves the fighter unhinged. The fighter is now frenzied.



26: BLINDED IN ONE EYE The fighter survives but loses the sight of one of his eyes. A fighter with only one good eye has his Ballistic Skill reduced by -1. If the fighter is subsequently blinded for a second time, thus becoming blind, then treat it as a Dead result.


31: PARTIALLY DEAFENED The fighter survives but is partially deafened as a result of his injuries. His Initiative characteristic is reduced by -1.



32: SHELL SHOCK The fighter survives but is extremely nervous and jumpy due to the traumatic injuries he has suffered. His Leadership characteristic is reduced by -1.


33: HAND INJURY The fighter has badly wounded one of his hands. The fighter's Weapon Skill characteristic is reduced by -1. Randomly determine which hand has been hurt.



34-36 OLD BATTLE WOUND The fighter recovers but his old wound sometimes affects his health. Roll a D6 before each game for each Old Battle Wound suffered. On the roll of a 1 the fighter’s old wound is playing up and he is unable to take part in the forthcoming battle.



41-55: FULL RECOVERY The fighter has been knocked unconscious or suffers a mildly incapacitating wound from which he makes a full recovery.


56: BITTER ENMITY Although he makes a full physical recovery, the fighter has been mentally scarred by his experiences. He develops a bitter enmity for the gang responsible for his injury. Roll a D6 to see who he now hates.

1-4: The individual enemy who inflicted the injury (if unknown, roll a random enemy model).

5-6: The leader of the gang who inflicted the injury.



61-63: CAPTURED The fighter is captured. (see rescue mission in Shadow war book except that instead of being worth 100 points they are worth half their points value )


64: HORRIBLE SCARS The fighter recovers but is left horribly disfigured. His scarred and distorted features means he causes fear.


65: IMPRESSIVE SCARS The fighter recovers and is left with impressive scars as testament to his bravery. The model receives a +1 Leadership bonus. This bonus applies only once.


66: SURVIVES AGAINST THE ODDS The fighter regains consciousness alone in the darkness, given up for dead by his companions and overlooked by his enemies. Despite his injuries he makes his way back home. He recovers fully and his uncanny survival earns him +2 to he’s advance roll.
 
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0604854

Ganger
Mar 25, 2012
56
21
8
Hunt The promethium sprall (tweak):
Hidden Cache- Change points rewards from 100 and 150 to 50 and 100.
Friendly Territory- you can reroll injury results of 11-36.
 

0604854

Ganger
Mar 25, 2012
56
21
8
After each game roll on the following table to determine how much promethium you find:
0-1 None, but to aid you in your next mission HQ has sent a special operative of your choice to assist you.
2-3 1 Promethium
4-5 2 Promethium
6 3 Promethium
7+ 3 Promethium and one rare item roll.

Modeifiers:
Win +1
For each member of the kill team with scavenger skill who did not go out of action +1
Only one of the following:
Lower Kill team rating by 50-149 +1
Lower kill team rating by 150-499 +2
Lower kill team rating by 500-999 +3
Lower Kill team rating by 1000+ +4
 

Insurgent

Gang Champion
Mar 17, 2016
469
500
103
Springfield OR
I'm very interested in this project but know way too little about necromunda to pitch in.
The hardest part is going to be crystallizing a fluid post battle sequence. That is where the real campaign occurs.

So gentlemen (and ladies?), what we we need to look at is what is missing from the SWA post battle sequence that gave Necromunda such depth and leaves this new game lacking.
#1. Territory
#2. Stash
#3. Open Market
#4. Rare Trade

I'm not sure Kill Teams will acquire territory in the same way that Gangs or Warbands would. But the biggest thing that can simply be implemented in SWA is the "Stash". Making this simple inventory implementation will make things extra cool.
 

almic85

Gang Hero
Oct 30, 2014
730
1,191
108
Palmerston, ACT, Australia
Forgive a silly question but how are you guys calculating gang rating for your giant killer bonus?

Cost of models and equipment is easy enough but what are skills actually worth in the calc? Do second and third skills cost more than your first?

I think that's the thing that is still missing.

Also just my opinion but the giant killer bonus should either give more skill advanced or more money for equipment and men. It shouldn't give actual promethium.

I would also be further tempted to also just straight out remove the ability to sell promethium for cash. Maybe still allow it to get special operatives, but surely it is too precious to just sell it off for a few extra red dot sights

Or you could allow some sort of inducement phase like Bloodbowl at the start for the underdog to recruit a special operative to help make up the difference.
 

0604854

Ganger
Mar 25, 2012
56
21
8
Forgive a silly question but how are you guys calculating gang rating for your giant killer bonus?

Cost of models and equipment is easy enough but what are skills actually worth in the calc? Do second and third skills cost more than your first?

I think that's the thing that is still missing.

Also just my opinion but the giant killer bonus should either give more skill advanced or more money for equipment and men. It shouldn't give actual promethium.

I would also be further tempted to also just straight out remove the ability to sell promethium for cash. Maybe still allow it to get special operatives, but surely it is too precious to just sell it off for a few extra red dot sights

Or you could allow some sort of inducement phase like Bloodbowl at the start for the underdog to recruit a special operative to help make up the difference.
Take a look at my updated version of the AC shodow war system (just waiting for approval), it includes giant killer bonus as well as now most of the Necromunda gangs!

Still on my todo list:
- Spyrers ( I can think of 2 special operatives matriach and patriach but I am looking for a third)
- Enforcers/Adeptus Arbites (still at idea stage)
- Bounty Hunter Kill team (still at idea stage)

Beyond that I might have a look at some of the Inquisimunda stuff see what can be incorporated from that or I might do wyrd gangs etc.
 
Last edited:

Tyr13

Juve
Oct 4, 2013
44
31
18
Forgive a silly question but how are you guys calculating gang rating for your giant killer bonus?

Cost of models and equipment is easy enough but what are skills actually worth in the calc? Do second and third skills cost more than your first?
The actual, published rulebook includes those? I believe it was 15pts for a profile upgrade, 25 for a skill.
 
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