N18 The Ash Waste Nomads' "Hide in the Wastes" rule is widely misinterpreted

[OrderForm]

Pure RAW I think @Aulenback 's interpretation applies here. This would render the mantle useless though haha.

I think when I'm arbitrating it will instead be that the Hide in the Wastes rule applies Hidden *as if Visibility (3") were in play*. I think that's the closest to the first version of the rule - which is the only version that is coherent RAW.

A softer interpretation would be Visibility (12"). I'm not sure which one I'd go with yet.

But given the current phrasing I'll acknowledge that it's really in the arbitrator's hands. Curious what others think.

 

[Aulenback]

Ghost of the Wastes
While this fighter is equipped with a sky mantle, they treat the Hide in the Wastes (Double) action as a Basic action. In addition, if fighting in an Underhive battle, this fighter may perform the Hide the Wastes (Basic) action as if it was an Ash Wastes battle.”
TRIBES OF THE WASTELANDS, p76, WASTELANDS SKILLS

Interestingly, most of the fighters who have access to the sky mantle do not have access to this skill.

Chieftain, has both.
Watcher, has both.
Stormcaller has no access to the sky mantle, but has this skill available as Primary.
Dust Rider prospect has no access to the sky mantle, and no access to this skill.
Warrior ganger has sky mantle, but no access to this skill as a Specialist.
Dust Runner juve has sky mantle but no access to this skill.

Also interestingly... this removes the "This fighter may ignore the effects of Battlefield Surface"? That's quite a loss.
Edit: Ah! The "ignore battlefield surface" was rolled into the Ash Cloak equipment, so now is default, and not a loss.

 

[HugeSamples]

Unfortunately it really sounds like GW doesn't want you playing Nomads in the underhive, but sort of threw people an incomplete way to do so .

 

[Vonvilkee]

With no ongoing campaign, I'm going to stick a post it note in my book... effectively arbitrarily making a ruling before it matters!

I'm thinking modifying both.

Sky mantle: double action with same 12" restriction. Reference hidden as if in an ash wastes battle with visibility (24" or current visibility minus 6" whichever is shorter minimum 3")

This will force all shooting to use long range modifiers in the hive (visibility ash wastes addition per page 193) while allowing the shooting for the most part. Then in the wastes or following turns can continue to reduce visibility in exchange for actions... i could see a champ laying in wait digging in hiding better and better until a shot is taken then being really hard to pinpoint from then on!

Ghost of the Wastes: keeps the (basic) switch. Then instead of the "as ash wastes" cuz above change give the fighter access to the sky mantle if they don't have one at some creds (thinking 20 off the cuff).

Leans into the sky mantle in a more useful way while opening up the skill to possible random assignment and other members with the skill access.

 

[OrderForm]

The content creator Three Ogers in a Trenchcoat has emailed GW asking for clarification on how the Sky Mantle works and has encouraged others to do so too. I think it's a good idea. Hopefully we can get some answers in the next FAQ that way.

Here's his email

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[Aulenback]

But if they are camouflaged, why not have the special rule always on? You have to spend a double action (ie. activation/round) to enable it.

Oh! Just noticed this. Well, let's see what the Sky Mantle is supposed to represent?

Hm. There is absolutely nothing in the Book of the Outlands. Only the Wargear listing, and that gives no fluff, but only the rule.

Well. What do we have then in the name? Mantle means cloak - not the high back banner that many seem to assume it refers to. In many ways, it seems synonymous with the "Ash Cloaks," which are cloaks that protect against and allow blending into the ash, a "Sky Mantle" is a cloak that references the sky. Maybe the ash storms? Clouds? Fogs? "Clad in their flowing ‘haaz’arn’, or ash cloaks, they can lie for hours beneath shifting ashen sands waiting for their prey to draw near. Then, attacking with sudden and overwhelming force they bring down their quarry, claiming their prize of loot and supplies before disengaging." Again, that reference is for the ash cloak, not for the sky mantle. But they are both "cloaks." By linguistic definition, worn over the shoulders.

From the Ash Wastes rule book: "They came out of the wastes like shadows blown on the ash wind, their cloaks billowing around them and making their outlines blur and shift."

So what could the (Double) Action be that readies their sky mantle (cloak) to camouflage them? Well, maybe unfurling their sky mantle. It may not be constantly worn to conceal, as it may not always be convenient to be hidden from friends? All hypothetical, though. I don't have the new book to scour to see if there are any background fluff descriptions of the sky mantle in it, though. Hopefully someone have have a look through, to see what description the mantle (cloak) may (or may not) have been given?

 

[Darkwandarer]

It's not clear, and I wrote to GW a while ago asking for a ruling.

Ended up with arbitrator and we agreed on 9" as a visibility range for the sky mantle if there is no visibility set, I think it's intended to give 3" but it's staggeringly unclear.

I've used them 1-2 times in 20 games.

In general if you play Nomads you're campaign is at the mercy of the arbitrator, the RAW dominion rules are a mess too so compromises on all sides.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Not sure what is unclear. I get that rules are broken, but the intention at the time was to apply Pitch Black from version N22, which was 3". If that has changed, at least roll for it to determine range as per N23? But 9" works too of course.

 

[OrderForm]

I've come across another funny vaguery of the book.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can tell there isn't actually anything in the Sky Mantle rule that confines it to the wastes other than its name "Hide in the Wastes". However there is of course the Ghost of the Wastes skill which allows you to use Hide in the Wastes in the Hive. Except there's a typo in that rule

GHOST OF THE WASTES
While this fighter is equipped with a sky mantle, they
treat the Hide in the Wastes (Double) action as a Basic
action. In addition, if fighting in an Underhive battle,
this fighter may perform the Hide the Wastes (Basic)
action as if it was an Ash Wastes battle.

Just awful proofing and writing. I don't blame the rule writers. They're clearly talented. They're just not given enough time to be thorough.

Anyway, I might make a more general Nomads discussion thread soon!

 

[Darkwandarer]

I've come across another funny vaguery of the book.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can tell there isn't actually anything in the Sky Mantle rule that confines it to the wastes other than its name "Hide in the Wastes". However there is of course the Ghost of the Wastes skill which allows you to use Hide in the Wastes in the Hive. Except there's a typo in that rule

GHOST OF THE WASTES
While this fighter is equipped with a sky mantle, they
treat the Hide in the Wastes (Double) action as a Basic
action. In addition, if fighting in an Underhive battle,
this fighter may perform the Hide the Wastes (Basic)
action as if it was an Ash Wastes battle.

Just awful proofing and writing. I don't blame the rule writers. They're clearly talented. They're just not given enough time to be thorough.

Anyway, I might make a more general Nomads discussion thread soon!

It implies it now only works with a Sky Mantle, previously it didn't need one.

Which means the Arthromite Herder loses the ability to hide in the wastes and has a skill which does actual nothing. Given the model has a beautiful sky mantle modelled on it, I'm going with it has one. Rule of cool after all.

If this stuff worries you don't try and buy a Bio-Scanner from the NTP

 

[Scabs]

I'm sure I'm missing a subtle rules nuance. But, doesn't the rule effectively make a Nomad hidden only and unless there is no enemy within 12"? Even if Revealed, the Nomad would revert to Hidden only if only and unless there is no enemy within 12"? If there is an enemy within 12", the Nomad is no longer Hidden. Within the usual constraints of scenario generated Hidden (x) and/or terrain. Basically, the Nomad can be Hidden even in plain sight only and unless there is no enemy within 12".

 

[TopsyKretts]

It is an implicit timing there. When you make the action, if there are no enemeies within 12". Which implies that the action (effectively entire activation) is wasted if an enemy turns out to be within 12" after measuring.

The rule ends with conditions for being revealed. Otherwise it would toggle revealed/hidden each time an enemy moved within/outside 12"? Sounds silly. But I see your point.

 

[OrderForm]

I'm sure I'm missing a subtle rules nuance. But, doesn't the rule effectively make a Nomad hidden only and unless there is no enemy within 12"? Even if Revealed, the Nomad would revert to Hidden only if only and unless there is no enemy within 12"? If there is an enemy within 12", the Nomad is no longer Hidden. Within the usual constraints of scenario generated Hidden (x) and/or terrain. Basically, the Nomad can be Hidden even in plain sight only and unless there is no enemy within 12".

No this is something I've thought about as well: was the original intention effectively a 12" (rather than 3") Pitch Black effect? And I'm really not sure.

I think I agree with Topsykrett's interpretation though. Reading the rule closely you see that the 12" condition only applies to the initial activation of the Hidden condition. There's nothing saying that an enemy breaching the 12" bubble somehow changes the Hidden condition.

I've spoken to my fellow arbitrator and we've agreed to essentially read the rule as if it was still referring to the old version of the Pitch Black rules.

So essentially: the Nomad can go hidden as long as there's no enemy within 12". Once it's activated the Nomad counts as having the Hidden condition as if it was Visibility 3" for the rest of the battle.

It's a fairly generous reading, but we'll see how it plays!

 

[Darkwandarer]

I'm sure I'm missing a subtle rules nuance. But, doesn't the rule effectively make a Nomad hidden only and unless there is no enemy within 12"? Even if Revealed, the Nomad would revert to Hidden only if only and unless there is no enemy within 12"? If there is an enemy within 12", the Nomad is no longer Hidden. Within the usual constraints of scenario generated Hidden (x) and/or terrain. Basically, the Nomad can be Hidden even in plain sight only and unless there is no enemy within 12".

Activation of Sky Mantle must be greater than 12" from any Enemy Models. Once active you gain Hidden as if Pitch Black.

RAW Pitch Black visibility is based on this table:
Pitch Black Table
D6Effect
1Full Night Cycle: The Visibility (3") rule is in effect.
2-3Near Night: The Visibility (6") rule is in effect.
4-5Near Day: The Visibility (12") rule is in effect.
6Full Day Cycle: The Visibility (24") rule is in effect.

It makes little sense to me to apply this rule when its not the whole table.

My group agreed at Visibility (9") for the Sky Mantles because it's kinda right in the middle and means you can almost always see them to charge them as you cannot charge Hidden models.

 

[Scabs]

Why not Hidden (12")?

 

[Darkwandarer]

Sky mantle
RAW Source: Book of the Outlands
Ash Waste Nomads only

A fighter equipped with a sky mantle can take the Hide in the Wastes (Double) action.

Hide in the Wastes (Double): If this fighter is at least 12" away from the nearest enemy model, they gain the Hidden condition (see the Necromunda: Core Rulebook) even if the current battle is not using the Pitch Black rules. They become Revealed if they move as well as all the normal triggers for becoming Revealed.

My understanding:
Use action, check range, gain Hidden (see Pitch Black rules).
Nothing here is setting Visibility to any value, it's just you need to be 12" away from anyone to complete the action. So either you agree a value or roll on the table.

To reiterate it's extremely disappointing that this is still a debate given they could have easily clarified this in the new book.

This is again Necromunda being narrative driven so if 12" feels fair/right then do that.