N18 The fundamental flaw of all campaigns

TopsyKretts

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'Feel bad' bottom stat advancements are part of Necromunda and something all veterans are used to. I don't mind it at all.

Has anyone complained about this in NCE?
 

JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
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'Feel bad' bottom stat advancements are part of Necromunda and something all veterans are used to. I don't mind it at all.

Has anyone complained about this in NCE?
Not everything from old editions is a good thing. Stealth mechanics were trash for example (and still are).
If leveling up a fighter brings you anything other than feeling of joy, then the advancement system in question sucks.
 

Troubled Child

Gang Champion
Jan 2, 2018
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If leveling up a fighter brings you anything other than feeling of joy, then the advancement system in question sucks.
Have to disagree. XP progression/injury acquisition are a story and not all stories are happy. Just getting better at what you want to get better at isn't very dramatic or dynamic. It is my understanding though that there are too many stats in the new game that don't do enough. You'd be better off developing new uses for said stats than weighting advancement in favour of battle stats otherwise it'll just more of a power fantasy game than it already is.
 

DamianK

Ganger
Nov 15, 2020
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Have to disagree. XP progression/injury acquisition are a story and not all stories are happy. Just getting better at what you want to get better at isn't very dramatic or dynamic. It is my understanding though that there are too many stats in the new game that don't do enough. You'd be better off developing new uses for said stats than weighting advancement in favour of battle stats otherwise it'll just more of a power fantasy game than it already is.
Problem with that in newmunda is that crappy advancement makes fighter worse than just newly hired fighter, because useless advancement still increases rating. Its not a big deal in friendly, narrative driven games, but when even slightest bit of competetiveness kicks in, it all goes wrong, as kicking out fighter with bad advancement and hiring fresh one with no bloat is a good way of limiting rating bloat, and that is just a terrible system.
 
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JawRippa

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You'd be better off developing new uses for said stats than weighting advancement in favour of battle stats otherwise it'll just more of a power fantasy game than it already is.
I do agree that developing more uses for underused stats is a good thing, but what's wrong with doing both? No matter what you do with stats, all mental stats are going to be less useful than normal stats. The only way to make players want them is to give them for free in addition to battle stats.
 
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TopsyKretts

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IMO injuries and advancements are opposing sides of a coin.

Advancements are the positive to contrast the negative injuries. They should be positive and only positive.
Virtually no other game does this: Blood Bowl, NCE, Mordheim, GorkaMorka, Kill Team ++ Injuries are sometimes negligible. Advancements are sometimes negligible.

What you are discussing is something very alien to history and related games of Necromunda. It is something brand new.
 

TopsyKretts

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Problem with that in newmunda is that crappy advancement makes fighter worse than just newly hired fighter, because useless advancement still increases rating. Its not a big deal in friendly, narrative driven games, but when even slightest bit of competetiveness kicks in, it all goes wrong, as kicking out fighter with bad advancement and hiring fresh one with no bloat is a good way of limiting rating bloat, and that is just a terrible system.
It all goes wrong? Blood Bowl was exactly like this during the peak of its competitiveness (LRB6/CRP/BB2016). You can certainly drop the fighter and recruit a new, if that's what you want to spend your credits on. Credits are a finite resource.

Playing as goblins, almost every time a goblin got an advancement, I was looking at replacing that goblin if I had gold coin to spare. Sometimes I didn't. Sometimes you can manage with a few bloated models. Same applied to some extend to zombies and a few other models/teams.
 

Thorgor

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Playing as goblins, almost every time a goblin got an advancement, I was looking at replacing that goblin if I had gold coin to spare.
Looks like bad design to me, if you can't even opt out of a 'reward' that is actually detrimental.
No amount of "we've always done it that way" is gonna change that.

Advancements should never be detrimental. A single injury should never be reason enough to fire a fighter.
Any system that doesn't abide by those two rules needs to be improved.
 

DamianK

Ganger
Nov 15, 2020
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It all goes wrong? Blood Bowl was exactly like this during the peak of its competitiveness (LRB6/CRP/BB2016). You can certainly drop the fighter and recruit a new, if that's what you want to spend your credits on. Credits are a finite resource.

Playing as goblins, almost every time a goblin got an advancement, I was looking at replacing that goblin if I had gold coin to spare. Sometimes I didn't. Sometimes you can manage with a few bloated models. Same applied to some extend to zombies and a few other models/teams.
So you are basically saying that it's narratively and mechanicaly fine to fire fighter because he got bad advancement and instantly replace him with same fresh fighter without crappy advancement, but somehow simply choosing advancements rather than rolling random ones is breaking story telling and immersion?
 

TopsyKretts

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My story telling and immersion is based on the history of skirmish campaign GW games, so yes. It is what it is. I know firing models in BB is well established, even for the most competitive editions. I don't think I did it for NCE though. Did anyone complain about this for any other games?

I found one discussion for BB2 (digital): https://steamcommunity.com/app/236690/discussions/0/487870763307494686/
 

Thorgor

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So, Bob can get a reward that turns out to be entirely detrimental, get fired and be immediatelly replaced by Bob-2, who is the exact same as Bob before he got that cursed reward. The whole thing costs the player in-game resources for no benefit whatsoever.

Please, explain to me how this can be good for story-telling and immersion and/or fair.
 
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TopsyKretts

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So, Bob can get a reward that turns out to be entirely detrimental, get fired and be immediatelly replaced by Bob-2, who is the exact same as Bob before he got that cursed reward. The whole thing costs the player in-game resources for no benefit whatsoever.

Please, explain to me how this can be good for story-telling and immersion and/or fair.
I'm more interested in how this has been discussed in the past compared to now, and made a separate discussion for it:
 

TopsyKretts

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I'm not sure it has much effect for balance. In previous blood bowl editions, this would be fairly common as advancements were mandatory. For new Blood Bowl, models spend SPP (XP) in the same was as N17+. Which means that if you don't want your snotling to gain a skill (doubling it's cost, you can opt not to. This could lead to models gaining higher amount of SPPs and finally being able to purchase something more worthwhile (for example a stat upgrade or a secondary skill).

On the other side, random skills are now cheaper, which could lead some to fish for specific skills which in turn will give lower rating and faster progression towards the 2nd advancement. Any model who are unlucky and gets a trash skill could be fired, only to be replaced by Bob the 2nd. How does this improve balance, immersion or narrative?

Also, to fire Bob1 with a poor advancement and replace it with fresh Bob2 is highly situational. If Bob1 got any previous useful advancements, are those worth sacrificing to get rid of the bloat of a single low-tier skill/stat upgrade? Is there enough money to replace Bob, or perhaps the money could be better spent on new models/weapons instead?
 

JawRippa

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Why would it matter how it was discussed back then? People didn't complain because old Necromunda was a lot more stable ruleset and generally allowed for more tolerance and because fighter's advancements did not bloat gang as much.

Its okay if not every fighter grows to be a badass, but I really dislike when advancing fighters is actually punishing the player. Other things should do that, such as injuries. I still remember a horrible aftertaste after an old killteam campaign I've played, where it was better to fire leveled up boyz/gretchins rather than keep them. Thats a failure to keep a player immersed in my eyes.
 

TopsyKretts

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If a leader or 'champ' got +1Ld for first advancement, that would effectively be +20 to rating and next advancement would require another 20 XP.

I get that a lot of people are unhappy about this today. What I don't get is why "nobody" was unhappy about it for the past 20 years...
 

cronevald

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Jun 5, 2016
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If a leader or 'champ' got +1Ld for first advancement, that would effectively be +20 to rating and next advancement would require another 20 XP.

I get that a lot of people are unhappy about this today. What I don't get is why "nobody" was unhappy about it for the past 20 years...
I think partly because advancements were done by an xp bracket system. Adding the total xp to gang rating didn't really feel like bloat while adding the current costs of individual advancements does.
 
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DamianK

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If a leader or 'champ' got +1Ld for first advancement, that would effectively be +20 to rating and next advancement would require another 20 XP.

I get that a lot of people are unhappy about this today. What I don't get is why "nobody" was unhappy about it for the past 20 years...

In Oldmunda:
- there were no mental stats (which as mentioned by someone previously, are of very dubious usefulness)
- there was more xp gain and more advancements, so even if you got crappy advance, next chance for getting another was not so far off
- it had one system of advancement for everyone, unlike newmunda, where there are two badly implemented to choose from (ie. random or choose your own, in oldmunda just random)
- there was less income, so firing fighter and immidiately hiring new one was expensive and ill-advised
- there were no champions with increased stats to be hired whenever player feels like it
- fighters cost was increased proportionally to xp gained, unlike set cred amount nowadays

and probably a bunch more, but this is all I can think of right now.