N18 The fundamental flaw of all campaigns

Kiro The Avenger

Gang Hero
Apr 4, 2018
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Bristol, UK
Just because people werent posting on forums complaining about it doesn't mean it was good. Or maybe other aspects of the game contributed to it not being a problem. Xp was quite different back then as a whole.

On top of that "good enough" or "workable" should not prevent improvements. Oldcromunda is not a perfect game, there are improvements to be found.

Disappointment with advances has been expressed on numerous occasions by numerous people on my group - regardless of if it was a problem before, I'm confident it is a problem now.
 

TopsyKretts

Hive Lord
Honored Tribesman
Dec 29, 2017
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In Oldmunda:
- there were no mental stats (which as mentioned by someone previously, are of very dubious usefulness)
Ld.
- there was more xp gain and more advancements, so even if you got crappy advance, next chance for getting another was not so far off
This is moving the goal post. Firing Bob1 to replace with Bob2 is still useful within certain limits, and arguably all editions are within these limits. In addition, replacement made sure the next advancement were even closer off (at least for juves, not for gangers and to less degree champs/leader).
 

DamianK

Ganger
Nov 15, 2020
52
74
18
Ld.

This is moving the goal post. Firing Bob1 to replace with Bob2 is still useful within certain limits, and arguably all editions are within these limits. In addition, replacement made sure the next advancement were even closer off (at least for juves, not for gangers and to less degree champs/leader).
Seriously? That is one stat versus 4 now, and it is used for leadership test, which is actually not a bad stat to have leveled up, compared to, say, willpower.

I`m not even sure what you are trying to say in the second part. Since income was scarce, it was really hard to justify firing fighter to buy replacement, since that money was necessary for buying equipment. In newmunda money is much more plentiful, so that is less of a concern. But that is entirely off the point, which, at least for me, was that firing fighter with bad advancement just to buy fresh one with less bloat is gamey and anti-narrative, and which is why I prefer to choose my advancements, so that I don`t have to fire fighters because they got crap upgrade.
 

TopsyKretts

Hive Lord
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Dec 29, 2017
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Yes, it is seriously 1 stat :p Again moving the goal post. It isn't bad compared to something worse, no. It is still bad compared to all other stats and was mostly a disappointment for any of my juves, gangers and heavies.

By second part attempts to point out that it is always beneficial to replace the model. Whether it's worth it compared to other expenditures is situational. You make a good argument for why choosing advancements can be beneficial, but I'd disagree strongly that it's gamey and anti-narrative. I can think of numerous real-life examples where members of a group, organization, team or band has developed apart and separated.
 

DamianK

Ganger
Nov 15, 2020
52
74
18
Yes, it is seriously 1 stat :p Again moving the goal post. It isn't bad compared to something worse, no. It is still bad compared to all other stats and was mostly a disappointment for any of my juves, gangers and heavies.

By second part attempts to point out that it is always beneficial to replace the model. Whether it's worth it compared to other expenditures is situational.
And who is moving goalposts now? It is beneficial to replace the model, and that is arguably bad design.
 

JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
1,434
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Saint-Petersburg, Russia
It's been a while since I read the new edition, what are the uses of the mental stats?
Provide opponents with tactical cards or free fighters due to gang rating difference /s
  • Cool is used to test nerve, target priority test and not to flee the battlefield so is the only useful one. Still I'd prefer to have a +1S or +1I any day of the week.
  • Willpower is to cast psychic powers or to resist those... Super niche, but when you need it you really need it such as when going against corpse grinders who simply won't let you attack them at all if you have a crappy willpower.
  • Intelligence is for opening locked doors, loot caskets... That's about it.
  • Leadership is an absolute joke of a stat, it is only used for some skills, so useless for everyone but leaders or champions.
Do note that I've listed most common uses. There are some niche situations sprinkled throughout rules, but nobody cares about those.
 
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Daganisoraan

Ganger
Oct 25, 2021
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(Funny that people talk about random advancement, I was planning to write a VERY long new thread about the subject of turning newmunda into random advancement, so talking about the subjet is easy currently since I've already thought of some things)

One of the problem of newmunda vs oldmunda is that people are comparing a non-random advancement system to a random system, or rather fan made advancement system with more stats vs the old system which has less stats AND so its bound to have problems.

In newmunda (normal rules) there is no bad advancement, just advancement that cost an arm and a leg, because seriously, who in their right mind will accumulate 15 xp for a random skill in any category instead +1 BS and 1 Wound (for example).

In the old system, which I played a lot, advancement were less perceived as bad, but rather directionless. Since no one started with over the top high stats fighters and everyone gained advancement randomly, the advancement we're perceived as less bad. Although I admit that gaining Initiative or Strength was a bit less good than the rest. But for Leadership, it was rarely considered as a bad roll since it affected plenty of things.

The main problem of converting currently newmunda to a random table is the LCWI stats and move increase which must be added to the random results. TopsyKretts's Bookromunda and Petitioner's City house rules try that.

Both tried different approach and both determine randomly every stats advancement including each LCWI.

Petitioner's City solution is to give more uses to the LCWI. Each stats have new uses like Int that is used on vehicle. Thus, you don't feel bad if your fighter only gains +1 willpower (at least that's what he told me). I do however have some criticism on his random table distribution, but that's a discussion that I was planning to have with him elsewhere.

TopsyKretts solution is that when the LCWI portion of the advancement table is rolled, instead of a single stat is increased by +1, the player choose 2 stats to receive a +1 increase. This mitigate the result, but frankly, who in their right mind won't increase the Cool stat.

The main problem of making newmunda advancement random is that N18+ Fighters are much more focused right from the start. Gaining +1 BS for a Leader Van Saar is just as bad as for a Goliath Zerker but for different reason. The Van Saar doesn't need the increase since he start at BS 2+ and the Zerker can't even roll it.
 

Troubled Child

Gang Champion
Jan 2, 2018
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UK
Cool is used to test nerve, target priority test and not to flee the battlefield so is the only useful one. Still I'd prefer to have a +1S or +1I any day of the week.
As I hate overwatch being a skill I'd probably remove that and roll opposed cool in order to fire overwatch.
Willpower is to cast psychic powers or to resist those... Super niche, but when you need it you really need it such as when going against corpse grinders who simply won't let you attack them at all if you have a crappy willpower.
Could add resistance to drugs and psychology if those are still things. Could be some cool interactions with certain territories but that would need to be worked out.
Intelligence is for opening locked doors, loot caskets... That's about it.
Could be interesting with more interactive things on the battlefield but that is very group/terrain dependant. I'm guessing this gets a lot more use in the studio campaign. Considering how much of this game appears to be based on that it would be nice if they actually published some battle reports from it so people could see what they are doing.
Leadership is an absolute joke of a stat, it is only used for some skills, so useless for everyone but leaders or champions.
Yeah if Cool is used to test nerve then Leaderships main purpose has been removed, so it seems odd they kept it.

As for the free fighters/cards the only solution I can really see is a ban on dropping fighters. If no gang can ditch their people with sub optimal advancements then it should balance out to a degree as everyone will have them. I have a hatred for the tactics cards as a concept and they are even worse when so badly written.
 

almic85

Cranky Git
Oct 30, 2014
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Palmerston, ACT, Australia
I’ve likely said this before and am late to this party but I see the benefits of random advancements and I see the benefits of selected advancements.

What I don’t see is any upside to having BOTH systems in the one game. All that does is exacerbate the power difference between leaders/champions and gangers where the gap should be closing.

Back in the day of NCE all advancements am cost the same amount to gang rating so there were definitely some winners and losers in the table, but because it was random advancements no one could abuse the system (unless you cheated your advancement rolls).

It also helped that everyone (even leaders and gangers) was essentially the same starting stat line so even lucky stat advancements didn’t unbalance gangs very much.

N17 has all gangs starting at different places with stat lines so it is hard to have a uniform baseline.

Add in that different fighters all advance in their own way and the ability of your best fighters to get better significantly outdoes your ability of your worst fighters to do the same. This makes gangers expendable because they can never actually be as good as a champion.

N17 also splits the XP cost and the gang rating cost into different camps which makes certain stat increases significantly better than others in terms of efficiency. Some stats like Ld/Cl/Wi/Int should arguably not cost you anything in terms of gang rating as they are almost useless.

Others like T, W, BS should arguably cost double what they currently do simply because they are the best stats you can take and outstrip the usefulness of nearly every other choice. Those stats should probably cost you 40 credits in gang rating each.

Skills on the other hand are also largely over costed and should be about half the cost of what they are. If a skill only cost 10 credits you would be significantly more likely to actually take it.

My personal take on advancements as I have said earlier is that stat advancements should be exceptionally rare as if given the choice they are ALWAYS the best thing to take. I’d even go almost as far as to say that stat advances just shouldn’t be allowed (and hopefully I will be able to test that using Goonhammer Lost Zone rules).

There are plenty of ways to skin this particular cat.
 

Heart of Storm

Gang Hero
Mar 8, 2019
763
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I get that a lot of people are unhappy about this today. What I don't get is why "nobody" was unhappy about it for the past 20 years...
just going to chime in here because I've seen you use this argument before.

The statement that "nobody was unhappy about it for the past 20 years" is bold. Did you know every Necromunda player ever?

Or do you more accurately mean "of the small group of people i know who play oldmunda still nobody has a problem with it" which is a more accurate statement, but also a strong candidate for survivor bias.

The only people still playing Oldmunda after 20 years are those who REALLY like the game, have internalised the ruleset to varying degrees and are very used to how the game runs and like the outputs its rulsets creates. All the people who didn't enjoy aspects of it have either house-ruled it to death, or (statistically most likely) just don't play oldmunda or post on forums about it.

So the only views you've been seeing/hearing for the past 20 years or so are from real diehards for the old ruleset, and not a representative slice of all 'munda players when the game was at its peak.

As such theres a bias there that you really need to be aware of, and stop basing your views on.
 

Daganisoraan

Ganger
Oct 25, 2021
77
73
28
TBH I think that we need to split the discussion into campaign economy (rating difference, catch-up mechanics, exponential growth, income difference, etc) and advancement system (XP gain, whether or not it is random, how to pick skills and how much it bloats gang's rating)
Guess I'll use this opportunity to make a new thread about my thoughts about the random and static advancement systems of the old and new systems and what lessons could be take from both. Altough in my case, my thinking only worry about the advancement system and the statistics behind it, less about the value of which skills are better and gang rating. Although I'm already thinking a bit on that.
 
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TopsyKretts

Hive Lord
Honored Tribesman
Dec 29, 2017
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just going to chime in here because I've seen you use this argument before.

The statement that "nobody was unhappy about it for the past 20 years" is bold. Did you know every Necromunda player ever?

Or do you more accurately mean "of the small group of people i know who play oldmunda still nobody has a problem with it" which is a more accurate statement, but also a strong candidate for survivor bias.

The only people still playing Oldmunda after 20 years are those who REALLY like the game, have internalised the ruleset to varying degrees and are very used to how the game runs and like the outputs its rulsets creates. All the people who didn't enjoy aspects of it have either house-ruled it to death, or (statistically most likely) just don't play oldmunda or post on forums about it.

So the only views you've been seeing/hearing for the past 20 years or so are from real diehards for the old ruleset, and not a representative slice of all 'munda players when the game was at its peak.

As such theres a bias there that you really need to be aware of, and stop basing your views on.
I tried googling the issue but only find one discussion on steam for BB2, but it quickly evolved into what skills to take instead of the issue of forced advancements. When I say "nobody" I'm referring to online discussions like the one we have here. NCE is still being maintained, no?
 

JayTee

Ganger
Jun 14, 2015
192
357
63
Again, niche.

People who disliked the system previously are likely to have stopped playing and stopped actively discussing it. I stopped playing old-Necromunda in around 1998. I haven't continued to discuss Necromunda for the past 20 years because I stopped caring about it. That doesn't mean I think it was perfect, far from it; in fact I think it was a highly flawed game, but you're not going to find me sitting on forums for 20 years bitching about it because I'm not that curmudgeonly.
What I don’t see is any upside to having BOTH systems in the one game. All that does is exacerbate the power difference between leaders/champions and gangers where the gap should be closing.
This is by design. New-Necromunda is by design mostly around the Leader/Champions in the gang, and the rest of the gang being the faceless mooks. Hence Leaders/Champions getting Tools of the Trade, more Wounds, better advancements, access to all weapons, etc, while Gangers are stuck with (largely) the box weapons, random advancements, and a small miracle needed to progress to anything.

That is absolutely not what old-Necromunda was about, but that is the design direction GW went with on this new edition. Personally I like the new direction as it means I can concentrate my creative juices into a select few models, and narratively it makes sense that Gary the Bonepicker is lucky to stick around for a few games and doesn't amount to much.

But I know this is not to everyone's cup of tea.
 
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TopsyKretts

Hive Lord
Honored Tribesman
Dec 29, 2017
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Similar to the henchmen of Mordheim? Noticed that "dramatics personae" was also used there, while in 40k they used to be called special characters.
 

almic85

Cranky Git
Oct 30, 2014
2,289
4,043
163
Palmerston, ACT, Australia
This is by design. New-Necromunda is by design mostly around the Leader/Champions in the gang, and the rest of the gang being the faceless mooks.

I understand the intent behind why they did it.

I just don’t think it works very well as a design principal for a gang size skirmish game where you usually start with less than 10 fighters that can (and should) develop as characters as they gain experience.

And even if I did agree with the principle (which I don’t) I don’t think it’s a particularly well balanced implementation of it.

They might as well have just not allowed gangers to have any sort of advancement and it would have likely worked out both simpler and better balanced than what they have implemented.

Or really leaned into the faceless mook perspective and made all of the gangers progress in the same way.
 

JayTee

Ganger
Jun 14, 2015
192
357
63
Apologies, I was slightly incorrect in what I said previously. GW describes Leaders/Champions/Juves as 'central to a gang's narrative', while Gangers are its 'supporting cast' which is why Gangers progress via random means and all the other progress via choice.

This previously made sense as you needed ~50% of your gang to be Gangers, they really were the great unwashed of your gang. But now since both Juves and Prospects count towards the "Gang Fighter" count, and I've seen plenty of decent gangs without any Gangers at all, using Juves/Prospects to pull up the numbers, the theme has got muddled.
 
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