N18 The fundamental flaw of all campaigns

almic85

Cranky Git
Oct 30, 2014
2,365
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Palmerston, ACT, Australia
Apologies, I was slightly incorrect in what I said previously. GW describes Leaders/Champions/Juves as 'central to a gang's narrative', while Gangers are its 'supporting cast' which is why Gangers progress via random means and all the other progress via choice.

This previously made sense as you needed ~50% of your gang to be Gangers, they really were the great unwashed of your gang. But now since both Juves and Prospects count towards the "Gang Fighter" count, and I've seen plenty of decent gangs without any Gangers at all, using Juves/Prospects to pull up the numbers, the theme has got muddled.

I’m not sure it really matters that juves fall into the same category as leaders and champions or not. The difference between having 3 lead actors and 5-6 lead actors in a show is fairly similar in that it doesn’t work very well.

What works much better in a narrative sense for a group of less than 10 people is to have an ensemble cast with each character having their own storyline that intertwined with the others.

It’s the reason why soap operas actually work as a format because all the characters are treated mostly equally along the entire narrative course. They ebb and flow but all get their time in the sun.

If you compare it to successful tv shows with 3-4 main characters (Seinfeld, HIMYM, even Friends) you will see that while the story works for the main characters but fails for recurring support actors and it would be a bit wierd if Newman turned up in every single episode as a main plot driver. This is the problem that Necromunda has in that Newman will always be there, and he will always be part of the story so the story should include him.
 

spafe

Executive Officer in charge of Hats
Staff member
Necromunda Custodian
Yak Comp 2nd Place
Tribe Council
Feb 8, 2013
10,506
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Tilehurst, U.k.
But gunther shows up regularly (or if you take a single series as a 3-1-3 campaign rather than the whole of friends, some of the love interests that are supporting cast turn up a lot, drive the story hugely and are very much secondary characters).

Or if you wanted to use a different example, sons of anarchy (arguably much more similar, ahem orlocks!), that has 2-4 main characters it follows, but the rest of the mc members are around for pretty much all the episodes, and yeah some might drop in/out of a episode or 2, but thats the same as a scenario not having all the gang or someone eing in recovery.

Not saying i like the differences in necromunda or that xp advances are done well, but i think your analogy isnt accurate, and if the rule mechanics were done better, the format they are aiming for is legit and can work, gw just did it badly (imo)
 

Heart of Storm

Gang Hero
Mar 8, 2019
855
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^ was going to say, I've played other, non-GW squad based strategy games which have a couple of characters with cool abilities backed by generic faceless mooks, its not a new format. I just think it didn't work well in the necromunda format
 
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Daganisoraan

Ganger
Oct 25, 2021
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The problem of newmunda is that they kinda merged the oldmunda with mordheim without caring for the number of units you have.

In Mordheim, you have your leader and usually up to 4 champion-like heroes, then you have your henchmen group and you can add to that hired swords. So we're talking up to five characters who will gain skills and shoudl receive the better equipement. Although the Mordheim model isn't perfect because I've seen what happens when the number of henchmen gets absurdely high (cough cough Skaven cough cough).

In comparison in newmunda, there's no cap on the number of champions and special champions. You have 3 types of henchmen-like fighters, gangers, juves and prospects but each indivividual fighters have their equipment to manage and advancements. Add to that Brutes, pets, alliances and hangers-on. No wonder gangs get bloated.
 
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Jacob Dryearth

Gang Hero
Sep 6, 2016
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For what it's worth, I am including more characteristic tests, leaning into the underused mental ones, in the new campaign I am writing. They are called for in the post battle phase for random events.

I'm also requiring LD tests for Overseer.

I'm also going to experiment with requiring LD tests to call and orderly voluntary bottle. Basically if you can't pass LD tests, fighter's may stick around longer than you want them to. It's the inverse of Cool tests to stay in an involuntary bottle.

I know these are all house rules and specific to my campaign, but they are how I am addressing some of the game's shortcomings as I perceive them.
 

JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
1,471
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Saint-Petersburg, Russia
I'm also going to experiment with requiring LD tests to call and orderly voluntary bottle. Basically if you can't pass LD tests, fighter's may stick around longer than you want them to. It's the inverse of Cool tests to stay in an involuntary bottle.
I'm not a fan of this one. If a player wants to cut their losses and run, it should be without a test given how punishing sticking around for another round and getting injuries can be. If anything, Leadership should be used to prevent bottling.
 

JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
1,471
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Saint-Petersburg, Russia
I can see organised retreat being a mechanic though, like if you successfully pass you don't lose the rep or something.
Thats actually an amazing idea and has some flavour to it. You retreat either way, but in one case it is an organised retreat without losing face and the other one is chaotic fleeing, which makes your gang look like amateurs.

Mechanic wise, when voluntarily bottling pass LD with one of the leftover fighters or lose 1 Rep. It'd make having multiple decent LD fighters a needed thing, since your leader might get sniped early.
 
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Jacob Dryearth

Gang Hero
Sep 6, 2016
1,239
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Yeh that's actually much less punishing than my idea... The lack of Rep for people needing to bottle is a downward spiral. They don't get trade bonuses, hangers on, brutes etc. Being able to not lose as much rep for a loss seems good.

I've also toyed with the idea of having a higher Rep gang lose more when losing to a lower Rep gang. Have 2x Rep than your opponent and lose? Lose 2x Rep.