N18 The fundamental flaw of all campaigns

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Firstly, it's not a fact, as you keep pointing out you don't care whether it's monetary reward or not, they are the same. No - FACT - they're not. And subjective is all about whether you like something or not.

May I ask, is English your first language? Only because I am not sure you grasp what subjective means.
Is it yours? Because I've explained the concept that topsy is meaning in my post and you've ignored that to attack his(her?) terminology.

You're arguing the minutiae while not addressing the concept that has been held up as 'The mechanical flaw of the campaign'
 
It was a joke! Sheesh - it's even based on a joke expression! Again, if it was, why are all of the gangs being released with rules to play them in both underhive and ash wastes? Why haven't they stopped rulebooks? Why have they suggested and hinted at releasing future books to have campaigns to be set in other hives... so using the underhive rules again, but with additional environment rules?
Yeah, I get the expression is a joke. The gangs are released with rules that allow them to be played in certain environments, sure. But they could just as easily reissue Dominion as an updated PDF if it’s still relevant rather than leave it stuck in an outdated book from 2018.

Ironically other books have had stealth updates when reprinted but that old rulebook has no known fixed “second printing”. They have also retired all of the 2017-18 books bar the Hardback Rulebook compilation, which as I said somewhere on here it’s only out still as it’s the cheap entry point. If they reissue Ash Wastes I would expect it to be gone and honestly when I saw the included one was a Hardback I fully expected a separate release. Weirdly, they haven’t.

I think Dark Uprising was set in another hive. Could be wrong.

I’m not sure what the fixation is with Dominion. There are plenty newer ones, many with updated orders of how stuff is done and what have you; is it just because it’s in that old Rulebook? Is that now the Necromundan Old Testament?? Loads of stuff in that old book have been updated in newer rulebooks, FAQs and even in other Companion books - including campaigns. People were quick enough to ditch Turf War when Dominion was released in GW4, there have been numerous replacement campaigns since, why so stuck on it?

People keep saying it’s the “standard campaign”. GW has never said that, in fact they’ve issued other ones in preference to it and will continue to do so.

If it was that important don’t you think they might update it a bit so not to be stuck in the past and release it as a PDF for all those with one of the many other rulebooks they’ve issued that don’t include it?
Or are all of the people who invested in DU, HW, or AW with its latest newest updated Rulebook also supposed to buy the outdated one from 3/4 years ago just to get this one campaign?
 
Except that he and many others have gone to great lengths to explain why they think it's flawed and explain the maths and statistics behind their rationale rather than simply saying it sucks.
First off, when you start with that premise, you already admit you are biased and that your argument is heavily subjective. In fact, it becomes less of an argument and more about proving your subjective perspective to be the correct one to have - which is EXACTLY what has gone on in this thread. In fact, he is going around the internet telling people this - hence why I came to this thread, based upon a comment where he literally said the same thing.

The counter argument boils down to 'but me and friends enjoy it, so it can't suck' and it is of course fine if you enjoy it but game design is a science as much as it is an art. It isn't that Topsy just doesn't like non linear growth, he is saying that non linear growth is bad game design for the reasons people have gone over in the rest of the thread, particularly that it fundamentally limits the amount of time a campaign can last.
Again, this is subjective. The very fact that he called Monopoly bad game design, proves the point. It's one of the most popular, most played board games ever. Apparently though, people wanting to have fun, finding fun and enjoying a game can still be idiots because some guy has drawn a chart based on the model they want to present, but isn't actually reflective of the system they want to criticise, makes it "fact" that it's bad game design.

Sorry, but this is exactly where toxicity hits wargaming. People don't like a game, and for whatever reason, want that their personal preference reaffirmed. They'll go to any lengths including hand waiving aspects (only half the territories being rewarded with credits), base models only on gangs repeatedly winning, completely fail to address greater chances of fighters missing games due to being in recovery, costs of a medical escort or having to replace a critically injured fighter (1 in 6)... I could go on.

Only one person has said it limits the amount of time a campaign has last, and again, that isn't bad game design, it's just some people want campaigns to be longer. One person has even shared their rather brilliant, if I may say so, solution of mashing up the NCE/N95 campaign with the new system - awesome!

Others have simply done as you do - uh, look, maffs, charts, Topsy's got this. And completely ignored the many other voices disagreeing. Even better, the number of people playing New Vs Old. I would back the vast popularity for a game over silly maths that is trying to define what a bad game is anytime. Because it means people are having fun and enjoying the system whether someone and their maths book say so or not.

These are objective arguments about the science of game design not subjective arguments about his ability to enjoy the game. At no point has anyone arguing against him ever come close to actually spelling out the science behind the idea of non linear growth being superior. There are arguments to be made like 'it is easier to get players to commit to a short campaign' or 'it gives you the opportunity switch gangs a lot'. Is it just that he said 'suck' rather than 'did not meet my high expectations? Because a lot of the criticism seems very focused on his choice of word more than they argument he was making.
Again, unfortunately, every time a valid counter point has been raised, he has failed to come up with a mathematical answer and someone else simply jumps in and says "well I don't like the idea of..."

Topsy just keeps going on about his maths, and models, that haven't factored any of the issues raised by people (again, quite the opposite, just simply dismissed or handwaved).

Game Design is a subjective matter. You only need to be a part of a large boardgame facebook group to recognise this. The UKBG&C group is a great example. And again, if there was any "correct" design, all boardgames would be following the same philosophy, they don't. Not all games are "linnear" - there are a lot of games that are based around establishing resource production and adding to it. Some also have mechanisms for other players to steal that resource to make themselves wealthier and their opponents poorer. Some of these games are incredibly popular.

On a very basic overview of it, that is exactly what N17 is (and yes, the hardback rulebook is a fair bit different to N17, they revised the rules but meh). The first phase of a dominion campaign will last around 3-4 battles as usually the territories are claimed by then. At which point you have a downtime and you move to a new phase where players can try to take other players resources with the idea of using them to increase their pool of resources.
The only real difference is that in N17 instead of being just one winner, the person with the most territories or biggest gang rating, there are several and there is no guarantee you will get all of them.

In our last campaign, we had a player who had played fewer games have the highest number of OOA's inflicted. He just happened to do a lot better at shooting.

So in summery. Linear does not mean "good game design", non-linear does not mean "bad game design". Anyone holding any such stances is doing so purely subjectively even if trying to use maths to prove themselves right.

Please refrain from telling people that "player experience" is part of this when not only are people happy with the system and "experiencing" it happily, but even those who think some things could be tweaked to improve it are still saying they have run 12 campaigns of over ten players... that seems to suggest the exact opposite. Again, globally too, take a look across social media... see how many people are sharing their hobbying in N17, or should I say, their experiences, which are positive. They aren't "wrong". They are just enjoying something, finding fun in something you don't.

I watched all of a minute of Pepper Pig, really not my thing, I prefer the kids shows of when I was a kid, but you know what? Who am I to tell my mates nearly 2yr old whether what he is watching is rubbish? I hate soaps and reality TV, but they are some of the most lucrative shows. My wife watches them. Does it mean I'm right? No. If we were all the same the world would be a boring place. Instead, you have a choice between N95, NCE and N17(with multiple campaigns and so far two settings). It's just that, a choice. You don't have to choose to decide that your choice is better - because you know what? That sucks.
 
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Is it yours? Because I've explained the concept that topsy is meaning in my post and you've ignored that to attack his(her?) terminology.

You're arguing the minutiae while not addressing the concept that has been held up as 'The mechanical flaw of the campaign'
You know for a fact that myself and others have raised flaws in that "mechanical flaw" theory and all we are getting is rubbish in return.
 
I’m not even sure what/why you are arguing any more @mcfonz unless it’s just to put up walls and walls of text and have the last word. Most have acknowledged that it is a mater of personal choice.

I’m terms of toxity everyone has expressed their opinion quite politely, some with humour, to hold a different view is perfectly fine. Heck feel free to start a new thread stating that Newmunda has the most awesomest best campaign system ever! If you want I like to think we are that kind of forum.

But I’m afraid it’s your language and way of personally calling people out that I find the most toxic and would politely ask you to please tone it down in future posts.

Love the Troll
 
You know for a fact that myself and others have raised flaws in that "mechanical flaw" theory and all we are getting is rubbish in return.
Actually I don't, I've looked and can see...nothing. please point me to the post number or quote it as I have missed this. I have referenced the lack of mechanism to counter this in all of mine and not seen any reply
 
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Yeah, I get the expression is a joke. The gangs are released with rules that allow them to be played in certain environments, sure. But they could just as easily reissue Dominion as an updated PDF if it’s still relevant rather than leave it stuck in an outdated book from 2018.

Ironically other books have had stealth updates when reprinted but that old rulebook has no known fixed “second printing”. They have also retired all of the 2017-18 books bar the Hardback Rulebook compilation, which as I said somewhere on here it’s only out still as it’s the cheap entry point. If they reissue Ash Wastes I would expect it to be gone and honestly when I saw the included one was a Hardback I fully expected a separate release. Weirdly, they haven’t.

I think Dark Uprising was set in another hive. Could be wrong.

I’m not sure what the fixation is with Dominion. There are plenty newer ones, many with updated orders of how stuff is done and what have you; is it just because it’s in that old Rulebook? Is that now the Necromundan Old Testament?? Loads of stuff in that old book have been updated in newer rulebooks, FAQs and even in other Companion books - including campaigns. People were quick enough to ditch Turf War when Dominion was released in GW4, there have been numerous replacement campaigns since, why so stuck on it?

People keep saying it’s the “standard campaign”. GW has never said that, in fact they’ve issued other ones in preference to it and will continue to do so.

If it was that important don’t you think they might update it a bit so not to be stuck in the past and release it as a PDF for all those with one of the many other rulebooks they’ve issued that don’t include it?
Or are all of the people who invested in DU, HW, or AW with its latest newest updated Rulebook also supposed to buy the outdated one from 3/4 years ago just to get this one campaign?
I agree re it not being the only or the "main" campaign. A point I actually made in my first post - one that again, was just dismissed because this mathmatical model was only designed for the dominion campaign. Note that the original post I was told to come here and view, says all Newmunda campaigns, not just dominion.
In a sense there is an update to the old N18 hardback rulebook, the latest FAQ has the changes to the rules in it and also repeats and clarifies the pre and post battle sequences - essentially ALL of the updates included in Ash Wastes.

No reprint. I suspect though, that this may well be because if they do a reprint, they may as well look at tweaks and changes to the dominion campaign and possibly other aspects of the system they may want to address.

The reason they discontinued the gang war books is that none of them were a complete set of rules. You needed the underhive rulebook as well, one of the gang war books then added sector mechanicus to it. There were a number of changes and simplifications of the rules.

Above all else though, one has to actually take into account the reality of what is Specialist Games. This is all well known fact by the way, it's available on one of the GW twitch streams you can still view that has an interview with Andy Hoare. Essentially, when N17 was released there were all of two people in specialist games. Andy being one of them. They were writing the rules and co-ordinating playtesting. They had no dedicated sculptors so were using spare time between projects or in-between projects or even the odd hour here and there of the studio sculptors to get models done - this is why the dramatis personae have taken so long in some cases, to be realised.

As you can imagine, by 2018 their team had grown. I believe now that they have 12 people. And contrary to popular belief, they do playtest. Again, this is really easy to prove as there have been a few leaks over the last couple of years. Doesn't take much looking to find.

As you say, Dominion isn't the one and only campaign so no need to buy the old rulebook if you have Ash Wastes. However, Ash Wastes is the only other complete rulebook. And that's largely because whilst the terrain is more sparse, the rules are largely the same.
 
Actually I don't, I've looked and can see...nothing. please point me to the post number or quote it as I have missed this. I have referenced the lack of mechanism to counter this in all of mine and not seen any reply
Frankly, no.

There have been several pages of interaction - if you come and make a statement about people not doing something, you probably should have checked first right?
 
So having kept up with this forum and people arguing about how much better the old campaign system worked because it had and income chart and underdog bonus, this creating a perpetual campaign, why don't you just add it in to your campaigns, I'm pretty sure most of the people debating this subject will have a copy on there shelf too?
 
I’m not even sure what/why you are arguing any more @mcfonz unless it’s just to put up walls and walls of text and have the last word. Most have acknowledged that it is a mater of personal choice.

I’m terms of toxity everyone has expressed their opinion quite politely, some with humour, to hold a different view is perfectly fine. Heck feel free to start a new thread stating that Newmunda has the most awesomest best campaign system ever! If you want I like to think we are that kind of forum.

But I’m afraid it’s your language and way of personally calling people out that I find the most toxic and would politely ask you to please tone it down in future posts.

Love the Troll
I'll be honest here, you have been pretty protective of Topsy and to a degree of others too.

It was I that first pointed out it is ok to like both, one or the other. You essentially weighed in on one side - though not heavily, which is fine. Topsy keeps returning with "its maths" and "it's not subjective", "it's bad game design and fact".

If you can't see how this is of itself bad, then there is a problem. He's ok to essentially tell people that his view isn't subjective, empirical and fact, which then equates to their experiences being wrong. Again, something that has been repeated and piled upon.

I have played both, I would have no problem returning to N95/NCE. I am not the one saying only one system is good.

If Topsy is such a vital part of the committed work on here, he would be best off trying to gain examples of people's experiences playing N17 rather than finding something about maths that makes his subjective view fact? And perhaps how to present his view in a way that does not, at least look like, he is telling people that something can only be bad.
 
So having kept up with this forum and people arguing about how much better the old campaign system worked because it had and income chart and underdog bonus, this creating a perpetual campaign, why don't you just add it in to your campaigns, I'm pretty sure most of the people debating this subject will have a copy on there shelf too?

I started thinking about fixing the new system to work like the old one… but then I realised I liked the old one so I play that instead. Works for me. 🤷‍♂️

I’m still not sure what people are arguing about. Is it literally the word “sucks”?🤨
 
There has been an awful lot of insufferable, passive aggressive, bad faith argumentation in this thread - which is why I stopped contributing a good few pages back.

Sorry if that upsets you (Whomever - not aimed at anyone in particular), I'm just calling it as I see it.

I not going to get sucked in further, so please don't. Just don't.

It's a very odd forum where the most prolific posters actively and openly dislike (borderline despise) the thing we're all here to discuss.
 
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It occurred to me that the current version of Necromunda does kind of have a mechanism for perpetually playing a gang; you can form a Splinter Gang. However, looking at the rules it's a pretty rubbish deal; you lose your leader, you won't be able to bring many Juves because they automatically become champions, and so on. But something that did catch my eye is that any Champion in your gang can become the Leader in the Splinter Gang...

An Escher Khymerix advances as if it was a Specialist. Specialists can pay 12xp to make themselves Champions. This means I could potentially have a Splinter Gang led by a Khymerix
 
@mcfonz Everyone’s entitled to express to an opinion even 1000 word ramblings, and yes I have been protective of those I felt were being unfairly singled out for criticism for holding an opposing view, whilst trying to encourage open debate. I’ve politely asked numerous times for peeps to be nice, so please use your first language(wtaf?) and go back and read them.

@Stompzilla We seem to have suddenly reached peak GW can do no wrong and all opposing views must be censored otherwise known as the God Emperor Clause. Yea this website doesn’t condone that approach 🤷‍♂️ sorry, but the internets a massive place and there is many a Facebook group that may be a better match? Alternatively go cruise the hobby and miniature threads to find the love people do have for the hobby and the setting.

Love the Troll x
 
Funnily enough a group of us from yaktribe tried to do just that for about 12 months from 2020 to 2021 but ended up shelving the project because the group as a whole wanted to make too many changes to the rules to balance it out.

From memory I think @TopsyKretts was a member of that group that was advocating that we just create a new perpetual campaign system to start and get something out in the wild but the group wanted to review every single rule before putting out a finished project.

It spawned out @JawRippa ’s updated core rulebook (which can be found here) but it is still missing the campaign rules, which were to be added in a separate supplement.
The focus of the project was a refined rulebook in general, the campaign was supposed to come after that and after excessive playtesting. Sadly there were way too many disagreements on what should be the vector for develompent - the development team had people like @TopsyKretts who were afraid of changing even minor things to people like @Thorgor who wanted to switch to a different dice system and change the general rulebook statline. I blame the fact that new necromunda rules are a hot mess compared to old one - for NCE rulewriters the task was a lot simplier, just tidy up some things.

Frankly, I don't see the point of discussing campaign mechanics unless you make the actual non-campaign skirmish fun.
  • Gangs are motivated to stand still+aim+shoot instead of moving around the battlefield? Check.
  • Rules and scenarios are filled with noob traps when in reality you should be just deathmatching with opponent (preferably by standing still, aiming + shooting)? Check.
  • Melee is a non-functional mess? Melee champion can get neutered for an entire game by continuous potshots with a crappy gun? Check.
  • Generally useless stats such as initiative, leadership, willpower, intellect? Check.
  • Non-sensical bottling mechanics which ignore reinforcements? Check.
  • Ton of equipment and weapon options, but 90% of them are traps, while other 5% break the game outright and when multiples are taken can earn you the reputation of 'that guy'? Check.
With all the things above I just do not want to play whatever game GW has designed. Its simply not tactical, nor fun. But it is a great possibility for foundation of an amazing game, but instead of fleshing it out, they started building addons on it, damning it in the process.

As for campaign, I prefer a campaign system with proper advancement system and underdog mechanics. Because of a simple reason: it is always easy to scale things from 'eternal' campaign to a 6-week quickplay campaign, but it is impossible to do the opposite with the way GW has done it. In my local area from my experience at least 50% of totally campaigns finished with less players than they originally started - because players who got beaten early and started a spiral of doom simply refused to keep playing. That's a very telling problem imo.
 
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Seriously guys, if you’re happy with the campaign system, maybe go enjoy the painting projects or the thousands of other topics and leave people who feel they’d like to consider changing the system for their own personal games to their discussion.

Just screeching about how much you like it doesn’t help anyone and just de-rails the actual discussion people are trying to have. People saying they’re not happy with it isn’t a personal attack on you. Nobody said you weren’t allowed to like it or that you had to feel the same as anyone else.
 
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