Necromunda The Spire: An N17/N18 Praising Thread

Troubled Child

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But in terms of UK financials, GW isn't niche - it's performing better than most companies. The UK enshrines in law equality leglislation but the law does come up short in the face of structural racism, structural sexism, structural hegemonies of powers which demean or diminish communities and individuals. Yes there could be a sense of corporate virtue signalling to their post, but it's also arguably a legal and cultural responsibility to restate or newly emphasize a commitment to diversity. This would have been approved at the highest level, and that's important to consider.
Whether or not something is making a lot of money has no relevance to it being niche, the weirder the porn you want the more it's going to cost you. Workshop is niche because the community it depends on is small compared to other companies. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the number of unique customers at a GW store is orders of magnitude fewer than the Boots up the road. Understanding the risk that this may be venturing too close to politics for forum rules I still feel it needs to be said, white, BAME or Martian the only thing a corporation really cares about is your money, especially if it comes from the top. The last thing we need if we are going to try and fix any of the issues you've mentioned is more corporate involvement.
 

Paupoi

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While I agree Warhammer's statement on racism is nice in order to silence some chuddish voices in the hobby, look at this goonhammer post:
 

MusingWarboss

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It was nice to see a response from Games Workshop (Warhammer) as usually they stay silent on anything approaching a political stance. Which is understandable really, especially in the last decade.

In this case I think they’re right to put out that they don’t stand for prejudice within their company or wider community.
I’m a little unsure how they’d enforce “you will not be missed” outside or their own company premises or tournaments but that could be said for anywhere. I guess its something that the community will, I want to say Police but that sounds inappropriate given the circumstances, you get what I mean though.

I wonder when they started "to diversify the cast of characters" cause when I was young pretty much every GW mini was painted pale skinned. Except green. And black for salamanders, but that was pure.
catachans had different skin tones, but yeah, otherwise is was fairly europeon focus.

lore wise... there was a lot of variety in 40k amongst the guard. very little elsewhere from what I recall
As far back as I can recall the warhammer games have always been very euro centric in terms of lore.

The few times they tried to pull in cultural references from outside Europe they tended to be cultural caricatures or based on rather broad stereotypes.

Though in the last ten years they have started to diversify the models and lore a lot more, which is fun to see.

So onto the models. Yeah, I’m not sure when the turning point was as it may well have happened during my absent years. I do remember painting non-white models over 20 years back, however... I’m not sure they were Citadel. I think they may well have been Ral Partha as I had a lot of those for fantasy, AHQ and the like. I preferred their aesthetic then to Citadel. Also they were sculpted to be different ethnicities whereas most Citadel definitely looked more Caucasian.

I do remember non-white models in the 90s but as @spafe and @almic85 say it was usually Imperial Guard and often a bit dubious on the lines of if it was appropriate or not.

As I was reading this thread I was sure I’d seen a black marine as far back as Rogue Trader. When people painted whatever they wanted. I couldn’t find that though. May well have been in an ancient White Dwarf.

I did however find this non-White Marine in the 2nd Edition Rulebook; bottom left picture. Given it’s in the 2nd Rulebook from the box I’m assuming all these date to RT era.

tumblr_nnoov6OUXA1r1g40zo4_1280.jpg

There his is, Dark Angel Scout Sergeant.

Now if memory serves well this was the time the Dark Angels were supposed to be Native American themed, so this may be why. He’s certainly not Caucasian looking like the two other Dark Angels to his right so presumably they’d abandoned that concept early on.

Also because he’s a stock model he’s not festooned with stuff like the Deathwing and therefore doesn’t look like a stereotype or caricature.

This isn’t to provoke arguement or any sort of debate just the earliest non-White Marine I could find.
 
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enyoss

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Their response doesn't go far enough in my eyes. What follows is going to sound harsh, but I do still appreciate some of their messaging :).

I don't buy the making great strides to diversity argument. I mean, we're in the 2020s - people have been discussing these issues for decades, so I have little sympathy for corporations which are only just trying to catch up.

For one, we're not talking about solving the deep rooted issues behind the ethnic minority and gender make up of boardrooms or the police force. This is definitely something which is dealt with stride by stride (or even step by step). We're talking about a setting which they, in their omnipotence, own. Why take great strides when they could, at the flip of a switch, better represent the world around us in the worlds they create and curate? Just do it. I mean, they didn't have a problem rearranging the entire background to shoehorn in the Primaris. 40k, in particular, is both their most popular product and the easiest for them to fix at said flip of a switch.

Truth be told, they haven't just done it because it didn't matter enough to them, until now. That's not to say they aren't sincere in their messaging - I genuinely believe they are, and I think the ending note is perfect. But I think to ignore their own glacial pace of action, when they are one of the few examples of a corporate who has always had total control over how diversity is portrayed in their little world, is remiss.

Overall it's a nice sentiment, and always good to flush some rabid racists and general bigots out of cover (not that I've ever met any in the hobby, thankfully), but own your past GW, as well as recognising what's right for the future.

EDIT: that does sound a bit harsh for what is a nice gesture :). So at least a well done for some recent improvements GW.
 
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ntw3001

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I think it's a decent gesture. GW isn't at the forefront of good representation, and while their worlds do have some kind of creative inertia which makes it a little harder to introduce stuff, they seem to have been happy to make sweeping changes in the last few years and haven't chosen said representation as one of the things to (significantly) change. Really though, just offering some female guard would be a pretty big inroad. Most alien armies are mixed or genderless, marines are... well, they're all male for no particular reason, but whatever.

But anyway, I think companies catering to this demographic are right to voice a position, even if just because they think they should. They're right to think they should, and they're right when they do it. Doesn't matter that the black-suited backlit businessmen weren't truly speaking from the heart without regard for consequences.

You can watch a bit of GW content on Youtube and quickly start getting awful recommendations. I'd rather not be in a situation where anyone assumes I'm the target audience for these people, but these are popular creators amongst GW's following. If you pursue GW content, Youtube has some well-sourced confidence that you will enjoy hearing someone say 'snowflake' without awareness of irony. That's the hobby as it stands.

GW, and similar companies, are known to be the choice of a lot of undesirables, and are correct to publicly divorce themselves from that group. They think it's a good business move to make that association. If they thought they'd make more money by giving loving homes to neglected orphans, that would also be fine. What they can do next is make a big-deal, flagship update to their ancient and terrible Guard range to offer more than a token level of representation in their core product.
 

Gunkaiser

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I take the view that people that feel targeted by some anodyne corporate boilerplate that one should expect in the age of social media ought to step back and ask themselves why they feel they're being attacked. It's not a hard to decide that GW is talking about *those* people and not yourself so why are they identifying with them?
 

Troubled Child

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You can watch a bit of GW content on Youtube and quickly start getting awful recommendations.
There's a comedy musical group called Jonny and the Baptists who did a song called Farage about a vote that took place to define it as a word and try and get it in the dictionary. I listened to it on YouTube a lot and the algorithm started suggesting far right videos to me as it didn't understand the context.
 
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ntw3001

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There's a comedy musical group called Jonny and the Baptists who did a song called Farage about a vote that took place to define it as a word and try and get it in the dictionary. I listened to it on YouTube a lot and the algorithm started suggesting far right videos to me as it didn't understand the context.

I don't mean unrelated right-wing nonsense, I mean GW Youtubers. Folks like Commissar Gamza and Arch Warhammer who broadly keep to GW topics but reliably gnash and howl at any suggestion of inclusivity. And the commenters who come with them, of course. GW isn't unfortunately adjacent to this stuff; these creators are popular enough to be consistent recommendations when watching GW content.
 

crimsonsun

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I don't mean unrelated right-wing nonsense, I mean GW Youtubers. Folks like Commissar Gamza and Arch Warhammer who broadly keep to GW topics but reliably gnash and howl at any suggestion of inclusivity. And the commenters who come with them, of course. GW isn't unfortunately adjacent to this stuff; these creators are popular enough to be consistent recommendations when watching GW content.

I don't know the other guy but I've watched Arch Warhammer try to explain various aspects of Warhammer Fantasy and completely mess it up, he didn't take too kindly when I called him on his mistakes either so I've never watched anything else. I do find it concerning if people follow these Youtubers to get accurate canon and don't or get someones personal bias version of it and worse if these people who don't even know the lore they claim to represent start peddling that things can't change to be inclusive because of 'canon' reasons when they can't even get the canon right in the first place. If I saw that I I'd call it out for what it is...
 

Galtarr

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I think its positive, especially given GWs history and elements within GW & Warhammer. Rather than cynically taking it as an empty gesture or virtue signalling let's take it for the best it can be - a line in the sand, a statement going forward, one we as acommunity need to take seriously and hold them account to going forwards
 

ClockworkOrange

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Ok we’ve mentioned Farage, Far Right and Snowflake - let’s steer clear of the politics please Yakkers.

Happy for the discussion to continue about the diversity of models in the hobby, although for me it’s a difficult thing for any Hobby manufacturer to get right, it can be such a fine line between offending someone with cultural appropriation and/or getting racial features correct. And just slapping on different skin toned paint is not the solution.
 

ntw3001

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I don't know the other guy but I've watched Arch Warhammer try to explain various aspects of Warhammer Fantasy and completely mess it up, he didn't take too kindly when I called him on his mistakes either so I've never watched anything else. I do find it concerning if people follow these Youtubers to get accurate canon and don't or get someones personal bias version of it and worse if these people who don't even know the lore they claim to represent start peddling that things can't change to be inclusive because of 'canon' reasons when they can't even get the canon right in the first place. If I saw that I I'd call it out for what it is...

Arch Warhammer is not an ideal representative of the community. Gamza is more in the low-key 'cucks and soyboys' style. This little empty subreddit is a pretty fair representation. [trigger warning: cringe]
 

Space Truckin

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Marketing drivel. Was this really an issue in the hobby? 99% of us are just happy enough to find someone play a game.

How 'inclusive' is GW when it comes to its economic barriers it puts into place on pricing. Yeah another price hike incoming. How can kids afford this? Excuse me. How many kids from privileged families can even afford this?

How many of those millions do they give back to the community for charitable causes? How many plastic kits do they donate in kind to children's hospitals?

How 'non discriminatory' are they when they kick players out of their stores when not exclusively using their overpriced products.

how non-discriminatory is their pricing against the rest of the world. Australia gets taxed fir being Australian but ho hum...

Oh yeah and end the we welcome everyone statement with... if you dont agree with us your not welcome or will not be missed. Statement is suspiciously facist bullshit to me. Surely ok for the in IP imperium as its fiction to tout this but this is the company's stance on what it perceives as discrimination?

Instead of pointing fingers at others and saying how great you think you are. GW why not take a look at yourself and make some real change and prove it. Walk the walk.

Cut costs. Grow the hobby and be more inclusive of all those that may want to participate no matter what their Geo, Socio or Economic status may be.
Anything else is bullshit talk.
 
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Space Truckin

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This is how another overpriced plastic toy company handles it correctly

On a global level, we help children through the activities of the LEGO Foundation, which works hard to improve the lives of children through education and play. They also collaborate with other organizations that promote children’s right to play, create and learn, as well as charities that support disadvantaged and vulnerable children.

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Product Donations
Hasbro believes every child, regardless of his or her circumstances, deserves the joy of play. We donate products and financial support to hospitals, shelters and summer camps that serve or care for sick, at-risk or underserved children. In 2018, Hasbro’s Gift of Play, our product donation program, brought joy to 1.2 million children worldwide through toy and game donations valued at $15 million.
 
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Petitioner's City

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Marketing drivel. Was this really an issue in the hobby? 99% of us are just happy enough to find someone play a game.

How 'inclusive' is GW when it comes to its economic barriers it puts into place on pricing. Yeah another price hike incoming. How can kids afford this? Excuse me. How many kids from privileged families can even afford this?

How many of those millions do they give back to the community for charitable causes? How many plastic kits do they donate in kind to children's hospitals?

How 'non discriminatory' are they when they kick players out of their stores when not exclusively using their overpriced products.

how non-discriminatory is their pricing against the rest of the world. Australia gets taxed fir being Australian but ho hum...

Oh yeah and end the we welcome everyone statement with... if you dont agree with us your not welcome or will not be missed. Statement is suspiciously facist bullshit to me. Surely ok for the in IP imperium as its fiction to tout this but this is the company's stance on what it perceives as discrimination?

Instead of pointing fingers at others and saying how great you think you are. GW why not take a look at yourself and make some real change and prove it. Walk the walk.

Cut costs. Grow the hobby and be more inclusive of all those that may want to participate no matter what their Geo, Socio or Economic status may be.
Anything else is bullshit talk.

While some of this is fair, this isn't the core issue at hand - which is race, and the systemic and institutional systems which lock out people of colour from being seen as equally valuable as white people in the west, and which leads to violence against them, loss of opportunities, unjust sense of threat felt by white people when encountering BAME persons, languages of exclusion and dehumanisation, and, yes, higher rates of poverty. But poverty is a symptom and system of racism, not the central issue, which afflicts the most wealthy and the most poor of BAME persons in Western countries.

Poverty is - unfortunately - not a central aspect of equality legislation, nor one of the nine protected characteristics by which - in the UK - inclusvisity is hard-coded, but is of course a huge issue, and more and more understood intersectionally. And it deserves a lot more work, but again it isn't the central issue in these protests, which are about race.

To say a statement responding to race is not worth considering because it doesn't talk about poverty is a luxury I don't think we can afford - instead accept and then build.

And yes, it (edit: racism) is an issue (edit: in the hobby) - it's a systemic issue, based on how little of the setting is cognisant of, engaging with or representing a non-white gaze. Why are most primarchs white? No good reason, beyond the origins of the hobby at a more racially insensitive time in - very recent - British history. You could answer by saying maybe Ferrus, Lorgar, Alpharius and Magnus are PoC, depending on how your intepret the way authors describe their skin - I think ADB writes Ferrus, Lorgar and Magnus as poc, for example, but others do not, and I'm not sure many paint them as such. Really only Vulkan and the Khan are written as and understood by most fans as POC. Why are most space marines white, when the majority of the world isn't white? Why are most guardsmen white? Why are most dwarves? Why are most elves? Why are most (Name X) white?

GW seem to have recognised this issue. Recently, the sisters of battle range is a phenomenal redress of this situation with clearly Central/East Asian-descended, African-descended and European- /Semitic/Mediterranean/north african-descended heads on the kits. None of which were insensitive appropriations or racist clichés. . Arguably, there need to be more South Asian, more clearly American- and Oceanic-indigenous descended heads. But if GW do this for every release, include that range of heads, hairstyles, etc, and have a genuine range of ethnicities for their models, they will start really changing how most people view the populations of their games. An earlier instance was the death watch sprue, but so much more is needed - and I think the SoBs show they know this. They are less significant, but the various resin necromunda head sets also show recognition of the issue.

You must understand it's not just an issue of players who are overt racists, which I think outside of reading horrible posts on tggames, 1d4chan, VK, Facebook, etc, we won't really encounter. Instead, it's about understanding and combatting covert and blundering naive racism within the hobby - and this begins with the minis, from which most derive their "image" of the world's of Fantasy, AoS and 40k.
 
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Petitioner's City

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its standard Corporate Social Responsibility.

You say that, and I disagree. More so, in saying that, you don't address the core issue, which is the prevalence racism in our society, and how as a company, GW has in the past not effectively combatted racism, and it has arguably constructed a covert or naively racist IP. That as a company it can do more to change its IP and more so do more to ensure fans understand that its worlds aren't just about white people doing white people stories.