Necromunda The Sump: An N17/N18++ venting thread (Beware:grumpy grognards)

Punktaku

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@CaptainDangerous
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Troubled Child

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So a friend of mine expressed some interest in playing 40k 9th edition and as I didn't want to just dismiss it out of hand I decided to watch some game videos on YT. I've watched games on a few different channels with mixed levels of enjoyment from a simple viewing perspective. So why am I mentioning this in the sump? Well I came across Tabletop Titans and they mentioned they are play testers for GW. Lets skip over the dubious practice of charging $5 to ask a question during a livestream and go straight to the crux of the matter which is they are tournament gamers through and through. Obviously how they choose to enjoy the game is their own business but having watched some videos I feel that my belief that tournaments are what ruined the game has been somewhat vindicated. So my question is why would you use tournament players to play test? I could be wrong about this but I'd guess that somewhere around 90% of hobbyists will never attend a tournament. I know I haven't in 28 years of playing.
 

Ben_S

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I'd say that it makes sense because tournament players are the ones who will try to 'break' the system if they can. And, further, it seems the studio are - or at least were - mostly less competitive/narrative players, so I guess they already know that angle from personal experience but need external playtesters to show how (some) other people play.
 

Troubled Child

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I'm not sure I'd agree that the studio is full of less competitive/narrative players but I don't follow news or gossip about who works there and what they are like. The reason I say this is the rules are so full of really gamey mechanics especially in army comp. Correct stacking of special rules, auras, stratagems and relics to get more re-rolls, saves, cp or whatever is way too important. Unless you match or supersede your opponents level of theory crafting you are basically certain to lose every game before the battle has begun. Actually I've just answered my own question, they want you to go out and buy new units to 'fix' your army.

Let regular Necromunda themed sumping resume.
 

TopsyKretts

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From what I've seen and read of official content, all employees of GW seems to be fluff/narrative players (if they play at all). Check out their example lists, battle reports and painted armies. It is all content to primarily show off new content and cool minis with huge diversity. You won't see that competitively. Just look at all pre-made fighters and gangs in Necromunda! Frag grenades on everyone.
 
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Troubled Child

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Check out their example lists, battle reports and painted armies.
I don't think that having watched a few games has given me enough knowledge to judge what is and is not competitive. I guess that's kind of my issue, with older versions of the game and games from other companies I never felt the need to do research before building an army.
Just look at all pre-made fighters and gangs in Necromunda! Frag grenades on everyone.
Again, not being a player of N20 you'll have to explain why that is considered bad.
 

enyoss

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I guess it’s bad for similar reasons it was bad in NCE - a lot of creds for something which you’re probably not going to use very often, especially if on lots of fighters. Was a bigger problem in NCE though I suppose as gang rating management was a thing, and it isn’t now.
 

ClockworkOrange

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I play a lot of Star Wars Armada via Table Top Simulator and real life when allowed, quite competitively I came 3nd in a National UK League last month. So I get it, but I’d say the problem with tournament GW games would be the massive amount of rules you’d have to be aware off to play and the unbelievable amount of dice rolling it just doesn’t look fun!
 

Troubled Child

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I guess it’s bad for similar reasons it was bad in NCE - a lot of creds for something which you’re probably not going to use very often, especially if on lots of fighters.
I wouldn't say it is inherently bad in ORB/NCE. While I've never built a gang around having a lot of grenades I think there is the possibility of it being quite effective. Probably wouldn't go all frag though.
the massive amount of rules you’d have to be aware off to play
This is I think the heart of the matter. While for tournament players, having and maintaining an encyclopaedic knowledge of every special rule and interaction is part of the fun, for me it's too much like work for my leisure activities.
I came 3nd in a National UK League
Congratulations man, I'm picturing hordes of stormtroopers with troll heads grinning their way past the camera to the sound of the Imperial march.
 

almic85

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So a friend of mine expressed some interest in playing 40k 9th edition and as I didn't want to just dismiss it out of hand I decided to watch some game videos on YT. I've watched games on a few different channels with mixed levels of enjoyment from a simple viewing perspective. So why am I mentioning this in the sump? Well I came across Tabletop Titans and they mentioned they are play testers for GW. Lets skip over the dubious practice of charging $5 to ask a question during a livestream and go straight to the crux of the matter which is they are tournament gamers through and through. Obviously how they choose to enjoy the game is their own business but having watched some videos I feel that my belief that tournaments are what ruined the game has been somewhat vindicated. So my question is why would you use tournament players to play test? I could be wrong about this but I'd guess that somewhere around 90% of hobbyists will never attend a tournament. I know I haven't in 28 years of playing.

To back what others have largely said GW moved to tournament players as play testers largely because they are the most gamey people and are likely to find ways to break the rules that the GW writers just don’t see.

Most GW battle reports are done using Power Level rather than the competitive points costs as that is the level that most GW staff play at.

All of that though is slightly different to what your actual issue is, which is that the current set of rules seemingly leans into units either having or needing to be in “aura” range in order to maximise their effectiveness. And of course the best auras are the ones that allow you to reroll hits or wounds which each faction has attached to captain and lieutenant rolls.

What that means is that you tend to see “battle bubbles” moving their way around the tabletop when an entire unit needs to be within the aura, as well as the occasional “jelly fish” formation where only one model of a unit needs to be within the aura.

You also occasionally see the string line formations in the background when someone is trying to prevent deep striking units landing in the back field as units can’t land within 9” of an enemy unit.

Honestly though I think even casual gamers these days have started to pick up some of the tricks that the better competitive gamers use and most armies have similar tricks (aura buffs, deep striking units, etc) so it is easy enough to figure out a few generalist strategies that will work against most armies.

My big gripe with 9th Ed 40K (and 8th before that) is that everyone has access to flyers and super heavy vehicles like knights, though 9th Ed has made those units significantly less useful as they can’t take and hold objectives.

Edit: I should also add that if you are planning on starting 9th Ed that you should take a look at Goonhammers start competing articles. They are probably way more in depth than what you care about, but they give you a pretty good idea about what units are better and worse in the current rules and some tricks and synergies for each faction.
 
Aug 8, 2015
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Filthydelphia
Man, I miss everything. My RL flares up every time GW previews a new release & I always come in late. Anyhow here's my two cents:

The new Redemptionist are a mixed bag; better models, somehow worse masks & hairdos.
Not to tear the scab off a tender subject [or get deleted] I always assumed the pointy hats were referring to european religious tradition & not the hate groups
[we americans always manage to ruin everything] as deftly put by this Newsweek article:

" And where the Klan's robes are always white, Holy Week's 'capirotes' come in a range of colors,
depending on which religious brotherhood the wearer is a member of.
Spanish cities usually have several different brotherhoods, often dating back to the Middle Ages."
https://www.newsweek.com/klan-rebor...-pointed-hats-look-shockingly-familiar-861717

01a.jpg

GW and all it's products were/are distinctly european, I see how some might be offended, but given the source/context I've never understood that the big whoop is.

The new start box isn't a bad idea, although Orlock vs Delaque would've made more sense,
and it's tiny which is clearly to get those Kill Team players hooked & cross over.
A bit of marketing & an opening to something else they might enjoy - again what's the big whoop.

an apology in advance to all the mods.

Cap Edit: *sigh* 😄
 
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