Necromunda The Sump: An N17/N18++ venting thread (Beware:grumpy grognards)

Thorgor

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Oct 12, 2015
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Yeah, Neomunda has become quite the overcomplicated mess.

It's not enough for Escher to be punk rock chicks with guns, they also have to be chemist, fallen-resurrecting voodoo shamans and bow hunters who tame weird rat-cat-lizard things.
Delaque went the same route from bald dudes in trenchcoats to abhuman nesferatus in impractical long robes with dozens of unsanctionned psykers and flying roboctopi...

It's like everything but Orlock and Cawdor is now Ambot-level of heretical crazyness (and not in a good way)
 
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Trafalgar Law

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Mar 14, 2017
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I think this version of Necromunda has just worn me down. I want to hate these new Delaque but I can't muster anything more than indifference. The sculpting itself is nice but, like the Van Saar, little if anything makes me the think underhive ganger when I look at them. It's frustrating as part of me wishes I could just give in and fully embrace this new version of the game but I know I'd be lying to myself.
Indifference describes my reaction to everything Necromunda since House of Chains.
 
Aug 8, 2015
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Filthydelphia
I think this version of Necromunda has just worn me down. I want to hate these new Delaque but I can't muster anything more than indifference. The sculpting itself is nice but, like the Van Saar, little if anything makes me the think underhive ganger when I look at them. It's frustrating as part of me wishes I could just give in and fully embrace this new version of the game but I know I'd be lying to myself.
Indifference describes my reaction to everything Necromunda since House of Chains.

Yeah, but so much from that time period, 40k, Star Wars, Marvel, hell, even Sesame Street & Disney, have become huge franchise, bloated behemoths that can't be fed.
It's what humans have been doing since we started hanging out with each other, we keep reworking/renovating these stories ad nauseam til we break them or they transcend
the original intent and become something more than art: from medieval + nordic churches to the Lascaux Caverns, etc., etc. It's both exhilarating and depressing.
It's gotta change soon, right? We can't keep this up forever.
 
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Heart of Storm

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I think that the problem is continuing to think of Necromunda as a game about scrappy underhive gangs trying to make their way in a big, bad, uncaring urban hellscape. It isn't, not any more.

Neomunda is about proxy war between privileged noble houses in the upper spires, arming and equipping formerly scrappy underhive gangs, in the backdrop of a big bad uncaring urban hellscape.

I think we've talked in here before about neomunda being a more "modern take", with writers who are influenced by the political events that have happened in their lives (hence a focus on proxy war) rather than oldmunda whose writers were influenced by events in the 70s and 80s as being probably key to the scope change of the setting.

Not saying everyone has to agree or like the change, but I think it helps to recognise that it happened when trying to get your head around where the resources for some of these other models comes from.

In the case of using psykers.. if you consider Delaque as being the pawns of an influential Noble House, desperate to win at all costs, is it such a stretch that they may be convinced to risk employing players if it gives them an edge? They're already screwed collectively is the wider Imperium takes notice of them so why not push it further?

Is it further evidence of GW moving haphazardly against its already established fluff, and opting to take a "we don't care as long as we think its cool" approach to miniature and rules design, absolutely, but id argue psychic delaque agents is far more sensible then some of the other things that were established long before the House of books came out namely Van Saar having access to an STC, or having Genestealer Cultists, and whole uprisings of cannibal chaos cultists on what is ostensibly an Imperial Fists recruitment world.

In terms of the range of new champion/prospects, I actually don't mind Death Maidens that much, they've been in the Newmunda fluff for a while, and at least they're playable models in the game, and the idea of punching out an enemy champion, only to have her come back somehow and hunt you down is at least Grimdark.

I'm less sold on Van Saar surfboards, I'm not sure I'm sold on the new Delaque gribblies.. as they've not been referred to in the fluff before and are clearly being inserted because they needed to come up with something and thought these ideas were cool...



I did however read the same "we're just getting started" line and eye rolled. I'm not sure we need any more 'munda right now, but look at the faecbook pages and its full of people begging for ratskins, scavvies and spryers
 
Aug 8, 2015
46
98
18
Filthydelphia
I think that the problem is continuing to think of Necromunda as a game about scrappy underhive gangs trying to make their way in a big, bad, uncaring urban hellscape. It isn't, not any more.

Neomunda is about proxy war between privileged noble houses in the upper spires, arming and equipping formerly scrappy underhive gangs, in the backdrop of a big bad uncaring urban hellscape.

I think we've talked in here before about neomunda being a more "modern take", with writers who are influenced by the political events that have happened in their lives (hence a focus on proxy war) rather than oldmunda whose writers were influenced by events in the 70s and 80s as being probably key to the scope change of the setting.
Nicely put!!
The way you phrased this actually made me feel a bit better.
I guess bcoz the way I came to necromunda I had been fixated on what it was, as if it were a painting, but obvs necromunda should change as everything else.
I think it was recalcitrence with the continual franchising/rebooting of ideas, which has become reflexive, excessive & compulsory, as opposed to letting things end & moving to new projects.
Or mebbe I'm @ the age where things ossify into nostalgia & I just dropped the ball.
 

Willnox

Ganger
Feb 8, 2016
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Rhode Island
What about if it ain't broke don't fix it take though? I mean the community has paid better respect to the game than GW has in the past 10 years...sometimes change for the sake of change is a freaking terrible Idea. One on the main reasons why I never want to see GW re-release Mordheim. It would just be a caricature much like "Newcromunda" is at this point IMO. All I'm saying is No maybe things shouldn't change and new editions should build upon the world that WAS already created, not try and change the story to fit some personal narrative of how the writer feels. Fan fiction is cool but I do not want to play in another persons headcannon "official fluff" just cause they are a new writer for a 30 year old story/lore setting.
 

TopsyKretts

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Dec 29, 2017
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Norway
I think this version of Necromunda has just worn me down. I want to hate these new Delaque but I can't muster anything more than indifference. The sculpting itself is nice but, like the Van Saar, little if anything makes me the think underhive ganger when I look at them. It's frustrating as part of me wishes I could just give in and fully embrace this new version of the game but I know I'd be lying to myself.
Yeah every new release like this decreases my interest in Necromunda. I wanted something simple and would love to have dedicated minis for leader, champs and juves. Adding all kinds of crazy new stuff and unit types does nothing for me.
 

TopsyKretts

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Yeah, but so much from that time period, 40k, Star Wars, Marvel, hell, even Sesame Street & Disney, have become huge franchise, bloated behemoths that can't be fed.
It's what humans have been doing since we started hanging out with each other, we keep reworking/renovating these stories ad nauseam til we break them or they transcend
the original intent and become something more than art: from medieval + nordic churches to the Lascaux Caverns, etc., etc. It's both exhilarating and depressing.
It's gotta change soon, right? We can't keep this up forever.
It felt very bad with star wars and symptomatic of this time, so many good old things become bad with remakes and continuations. Perhaps the same happened many times previously too, but I noticed it in particular with Star Wars.

For example, what would a remake of gorkamorka look like today?
 

MedMos

Gang Hero
Yak Comp 1st Place
Nov 10, 2014
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What about if it ain't broke don't fix it take though? I mean the community has paid better respect to the game than GW has in the past 10 years...sometimes change for the sake of change is a freaking terrible Idea. One on the main reasons why I never want to see GW re-release Mordheim. It would just be a caricature much like "Newcromunda" is at this point IMO. All I'm saying is No maybe things shouldn't change and new editions should build upon the world that WAS already created, not try and change the story to fit some personal narrative of how the writer feels. Fan fiction is cool but I do not want to play in another persons headcannon "official fluff" just cause they are a new writer for a 30 year old story/lore setting.
Very much this! They could've easily made this game not-Necromunda, they even had Shadow War: Armageddon to build on. From what I hear, quite a few people felt cheated that SW: A didn't go further.
 

MedMos

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If all the boxes and books didn't have "Necromunda" on them, I wouldn't have purchased any of it.
Understandable, but maybe the SW: A crowd would've been all over it, and anyone thirsting for new skirmish battles like Necromunda would at least have had a look. As it is, I pretty much opted out before release when I heard of the changes they'd made to a game I love. And am very glad I did, seeing how it has been going.
 

Thorgor

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I did however read the same "we're just getting started" line and eye rolled. I'm not sure we need any more 'munda right now, but look at the faecbook pages and its full of people begging for ratskins, scavvies and spryers
People begging for ratskins, scavvies and spyrers are actually asking for something completely different from what we got so far (and will probably continue getting) with the exception of Redemptionists who got shoehorned as Cawdor second wave kit (something another part of the fanbase is not happy about, as it means they didn't get a 'proper' second wave release)

Fans of Oldmunda keep asking Geedubs to widen the range by bringing back old Outlanders gangs and Geedubs respond by adding more silliness to the House gangs (and creating Corpsegrinders)
 

Trafalgar Law

Gang Hero
Mar 14, 2017
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Chorley, Lancashire, UK
I think that the problem is continuing to think of Necromunda as a game about scrappy underhive gangs trying to make their way in a big, bad, uncaring urban hellscape. It isn't, not any more.

Neomunda is about proxy war between privileged noble houses in the upper spires, arming and equipping formerly scrappy underhive gangs, in the backdrop of a big bad uncaring urban hellscape.

I think we've talked in here before about neomunda being a more "modern take", with writers who are influenced by the political events that have happened in their lives (hence a focus on proxy war) rather than oldmunda whose writers were influenced by events in the 70s and 80s as being probably key to the scope change of the setting.

Not saying everyone has to agree or like the change, but I think it helps to recognise that it happened when trying to get your head around where the resources for some of these other models comes from.
Which is why all the random psychers and other tech heresy annoys me so much. These aren't rogue gangs hiding in the underhive where there is no law and order, they're fully funded house militia units. No way these things escape notice.
 

Ardavion

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Nov 22, 2011
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@Heart of Storm I get and can empathise with your reasoning, I just don't agree with the direction GW have taken the fluff, and by extension the game.

It shouldn't be that the community as a whole has to shift their interpretation of a game to fit with a handful of people's home-brewed setting, when those people rewriting the game should understand a skirmish game's appeal as a blank canvas of narrative for anyone to play with; this approach can be seen in most contemporary skirmish games, and they're definitely better for it (Fallout, Frost/Stargrave etc).

Forcing a narrative on someone makes it like you're reading a book; no matter how well it's written, if you're not interested in the plot you end up not reading that book and returning it.

Given that not only has the plot been changed (from "whatever is cool in your head, roll with it" to "this was our really cool homebrew setting we played 20 years ago, it will surely still stand as an amazing story so you're all going to have to take it as your setting now") but they also changed the mechanics, which is akin to getting an author who has never read a given series of books, let alone written any of them, to continue said series; the dissonance is too jarring for me personally to enjoy.

As an example, the Wheel of Time series of books was started by Robert Jordan, who died before he could finish the series; another author and avid fan of the series, Brandon Sanderson, was given all of the notes for the remaining work in the series, in order to ensure as close a writing style as possible. I could definitely tell the change in writing style when I read the books, despite the efforts to replicate the original (which isn't difficult to expect, we're only human), but the effort to ensure the reader's enjoyment from what they had known before was enough for me to continue reading, and enjoying, the series; Newcromunda doesn't do that, so I, like some others, can't enjoy it like I used to.

I'm echoing a lot of sentiment on here of being tired and disinterested in Newcromunda and the approach to it, and I've posted a lot of my reasons why in numerous other Sump posts. I've honestly tried several times to put in a more specifically dedicated response to your post @Heart of Storm, but every time I do I look at basically the same words I've written over and over before and think "why bother posting that, I've said it before". I only ever muster up any effort for Sumping nowadays when the release is bad enough to instill a knee-jerk response, and I've been giving my generally non-plussed reactions to this week's releases as something to comment on - I've even liked some of them!

If people enjoy Newcromunda, fair play to them, but it baffles me as to how when there are much better games out there.
 

Heart of Storm

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Mar 8, 2019
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@Heart of Storm I get and can empathise with your reasoning, I just don't agree with the direction GW have taken the fluff, and by extension the game.

It shouldn't be that the community as a whole has to shift their interpretation of a game to fit with a handful of people's home-brewed setting, when those people rewriting the game should understand a skirmish game's appeal as a blank canvas of narrative for anyone to play with; this approach can be seen in most contemporary skirmish games, and they're definitely better for it (Fallout, Frost/Stargrave etc).
To be clear, I'm not arguing that the shift in narrative is a good thing, just stating that its happened.

But this is what Geedubs is doing across all of their franchises - I used to play Warhammer Fantasy and 40k, back in the day, I hate whats happened with both settings (literally destroyed in one case, utterly lost its direction in the other), but for every old nostalgic fan like me who's bummed out about changes in the lore, theirs a new kid out there who's not as long in the tooth, with a bulging wallet who thinks Primaris marines are awesome, or the Age of Sigmar Cow-elves are cool.

In terms of 'munda, I didn't get into its first iteration, so the new game isn't such a big shift for me, I've also been out of the miniature wargaming scene for a while so i get to enjoy reconnecting with that hobby because I know some people who like this iteration of the game in particular. I have no nostalgic skin in the game, so the narrative shift doesn't bother me particularly, but, I absolutely get why it does bother other people on this forum, its the same way Primaris marines and Age of Sigmar bother me - and I absolutely understand that.

However - whether we agree with the direction they've taken or not, that's what they're doing with their universe, all we can do as fans and consumers is decide whether we're in or out, for neomunda, I'm in, for now. For 40k etc I've come to the conclusion that it isn't for me.
 

Tiny

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In 40k, Imperial citizens abhor the mutant, which is why there are so few unsanctioned Psykers as they are hunted down as things to be feared. Except for Newcromunda, where there seems to be a crazy amount of Psykers for the planet to be making their tithe and still have a sizeable number of them running around unchecked. Which would alert the Inquisition, get it investigated, and have a new planetary governor installed (after a suitable culling of the population to reduce the inherent risk of demonic incursion through a hapless Wyrd or twenty).
When half of the population of the hive is made up of bounty hunters they’re never going to make a living unless the other half of the population are psykers.
 

Thorgor

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It's not really the shift in narrative that irks me personnally. Maybe it's because I'm a child of the 90s but I like high concept stuff.

Escher? Punk rock gals with guns. That's it. Just do that and do it well. Crank it up to 11 if you wish, but no need to add chemicals, zombie warriors or weird alien pets to the mix. Maybe one of those things but all at once? That doesn't make for a cohesive concept.

Delaque and Escher suffered the most from this 'kitchen sink' effect imo. It's not so much that they are no longer what they used to be, it's that it's impossible to sum what they currently are in just a few words.
You know, it's kinda like how you can check whether a miniature or 3d model pose is good/readable: you flatten it into a 2d black and white silhouette and check whether you can still recognize what it's supposed to be (a test the vampire/bat monstruosity fails miserably btw).
 

MusingWarboss

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They look terrible. As in, they still have long coats anyone would trip over in, the fastest they'll be able to do without falling over is a shuffle, and you now expect some of them to get into close combat?
The worst bit is that they’re so bland. They made no effort to create something new. You could just buy the original box and glue random crap to them, stick one to the side of a lamppost and you have something that looks pretty much the same.

We can argue on aesthetics on other gangs but at least for most the classes are visually quite different.

Not sure why there’s so much coo-ing over these. The floating brain looks like it’s escaped from the steampunk Duardin box.
so much from that time period, 40k, Star Wars, Marvel, hell, even Sesame Street & Disney, have become huge franchise, bloated behemoths that can't be fed.
Most of these franchises have hit a buffer in the last decade and have been trading off of recycled nostalgia. In fact nostalgia has been big business in the last decade.

The vast majority of their output has been the same thing they’ve done before but with a new coat of paint or rearranged pieces. Fatigue is setting in with them and all are losing money as interest wanes. Now they’ve all had “political” twists too but I’d attribute that to the companies trying to sell the same thing for the 60th time and trying anything for marketing purposes.

It’s no surprise GW has done likewise with Necromunda.
I did however read the same "we're just getting started" line and eye rolled. I'm not sure we need any more 'munda right now, but look at the faecbook pages and its full of people begging for ratskins, scavvies and spryers
Pretty much everyone doing that are asking for stuff from the 90s game or it’s expansion to be released again.

No-one is asking for the stuff we’re getting. As said elsewhere, we’ve had multiple iterations of the gang line ups since 2017. They’ve had plenty of time to do new stuff but much of the stuff they’ve done that’s new has not been that popular unless it’s been forcibly tied into the main six gangs.
Fan fiction is cool but I do not want to play in another persons headcannon "official fluff" just cause they are a new writer for a 30 year old story/lore setting.
Dude, almost everything from any major franchise plays as fan-fiction these days. Mostly because it is. See my talk of selling nostalgia above.

Remember *this*? It’s back!! But now has *these* too!!

Escher? Punk rock gals with guns. That's it. Just do that and do it well. Crank it up to 11 if you wish, but no need to add chemicals, zombie warriors or weird alien pets to the mix.
True. The Escher punk girl was a good solid choice initially. It seems though that there might have been a “brainstorming” session when they developed neoEscher because what we’ve got looks like it’s been developed by committee!

Exec: “We have a gang of tough punk girls here, how can we make them more than just that?”

Designer 1: “umm, Amazon’s were kinda tough warrior women so maybe something like that?”

Designer 2: “Yeah! But as they’re all women maybe we could work in a ‘crazy cat lady’ vibe?”

Designer 3: “I remember the old saying that ‘Poison is a Woman’s Weapon’, could we use that??”

Designer 4: “Is poison too limited? How about all kinds of chemicals?”

Designer 1: “Sure, we could tie that in with the Amazons and make them kinda voodoo and have zombie Escher?”

Exec: “So it’s decided. They’re Amazonian Punk girls who do voodoo and have a cat obsession and primarily poison people. Done.

Now, onto the Van Saar.”

Designer 2: “They had all the tech skills in the old game.”

Exec: “Right, sorted. They have all the best guns in the game all the best tech and give them something weird and techy.”

Designer3: “How about the old floating surfboard from Rogue Trader?”

Exec: “Sounds shit but whatever. Right, break for lunch, then back to decide what to do with the Muscle bound gang who live in an industrial environment.”