Necromunda The Sump: An N17/N18++ venting thread (Beware:grumpy grognards)

cronevald

Gang Hero
Jun 5, 2016
794
1,541
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Missoula, MT
I'm throwing in with those that have said the rest of the Imperium would bring the hammer down on Necromunda now that they've jumped the psychic shark. At one point it was still reasonable that there would be some shady stuff that could slip by, but at this point I feel like it should be a matter of not if but when some higher authority takes notice.
 
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TopsyKretts

Hive Guilder
Tribe Council
Dec 29, 2017
4,902
4,842
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Norway
Well well well... proofreading isn't getting any bvetter is it?
It's mostly a copy-paste of Infiltrate, except deployment is after turn 1 instead of at the start of turn 1. A long awaited niche players been waiting for? Or watering down existing rules. GW is really fond of certain terms like "From the Shadows", they've used it for two scenario special rules already.

Expecting the new book to be a hot mess (like all the rest).
 
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Gunkaiser

Gang Hero
Honored Tribesman
May 24, 2017
905
1,245
183
Corvallis, Oregon
Simple explanation: Lord Helmawr is actually a highly placed radical Inquisitor Lord of the Ordo Malleus that keeps prying eyes away in the hope that the planet will produce a way to destroy Chaos once and for all. That's the usual reason radicals don't wreck a planet after all...
 

JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
1,155
1,503
133
Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Expecting the new book to be a hot mess (like all the rest).
If the most awesome thing they could show in article was rehashed infiltrate, then I don't hold much hope for this book. Probably will be Orlock/Van Saar tier in terms of uninspired.
Also with phase weapons we are slowly going full circle to Underhive again (toxin used to ignore armour saves because of mistype)

Another thing to add is that how silly current lore has become. Van Saar can craft vortex 'nades and openly use anti-grav tech. Goliaths are genetic experiment. Escher have zombies. Delaque have a huge host of unsanctioned psykers.
 

Kiro The Avenger

Gang Hero
Apr 4, 2018
1,453
1,901
128
Bristol, UK
I think this skill is definitely more scenario breaking than infiltrate.
Infiltrate is quite limited because it has to be at the start, if you deploy on top of the enemy you'll be overwhelmed.
Now, you can wait until they spread out a little then ambush the leader or something.
Or, if there's backfield objectives, wait until the gang has moved up and infiltrate behind them, instantly winning the game. The only counter will be leaving behind significant forces to deal with the champion, which will leave your front line completely unable to stand up to the rest of the gang.

I absolutely with the current lore, a lot of the new stuff really makes very little sense and spoils the setting. I also think it spoils the game a little. I liked when everything was more muted and everyone was singing from the same sheet. Now, I feel stuff like Wreckers and Neoteks warp the game too much.
 

Zugg Zugg

Gang Champion
Oct 4, 2019
393
662
113
Shimane
risingsun-es.com
It's funny how things change. 90s Necro was based so much on the 80s gang warfare sci Fi trope. A gang member with a flame thrower was considered an unbelievable extreme and necromunda reflected that image.

Fast forward to now and the trope is what ganger doesn't have a (hand) flamer? That's just a normal thing. By the way these guys have hover boards, jetpacks and psychic powers.
 

MusingWarboss

Hive Guilder
Oct 31, 2013
2,250
5,236
183
@Zugg Zugg modern ‘Munda does seem like a reaction to something... not sure what but GW did cede a lot of ground to other companies for skirmish and small narrative games for a good decade or so.

I also think moden computer Games may well have had quite an effect.

The 80s/90s slow burn type of games seem quite out of favour now compared to ones which give you everything pretty quickly.
Is that because they believe the audience is impatient or will get bored?

Then there seems to be a narrative trap that just because it can be like that then huge disparities occur between forces and is ok because “fluff”.
 

ntw3001

Gang Hero
Feb 17, 2011
1,181
2,041
118
34
Essex, UK
I liked Necromunda because it was about people struggling as regular citizens in the Imperium. Outside the gothery and glamour of the stuff that shows up in 40k, there's a whole galaxy of random dickheads who are born, work and die with almost nothing. Regular hivers lived in poverty, and underhivers had to fight to have anything at all. Now it's a gleaming scene where everyone can just pop to the shops and pick up a couple of hoverboards and a uh flying psychic robot octopus, and it's just... standard. Bog standard sci-fi, glorious future, the only real source of conflict being each faction's favoured brand of post-scarcity mad science.
 

almic85

Cranky Git
Tribe Council
Oct 30, 2014
2,001
3,459
163
Palmerston, ACT, Australia
I think it might be more that the current rules zeitgeist is that “random” is bad and players should have choice in everything. I think this comes from GW games being in a competitive renaissance period where their main games are constantly striving for “balance”.

What they didn’t quite realise is that when given a choice most players will gravitate to the most competitive choice and they failed to put good checks and balances into their new system to stop people taking advantage of it.

I just did quite a lengthy post on the “income tax” from NCE and how it could be ported to N20, but what it boils down to is that the current ruleset is made to allow people to have whatever they want and that is not good.

I think there are a large group of players that would prefer an extremely more restrictive ruleset that really limited the scope and size of gangs as it would then mean that the players get to create the madness around the rules, rather than the rules creating madness for players to exploit.
 

Tiny

Hive Guilder
Tribe Council
Jul 12, 2011
3,906
9,428
178
South Wales, UK
www.tinyworlds.co.uk
That which is given has no value. If you’re given everything, you’ll strive for nothing.

There’s a simple experiment you can try with ORB that we did as impatient youths. Start with 3000 credits and access to all rare trade. Allow fighters to buy xp at 1cr per xp. Remove the income tax step after games so you keep all your credits

Build a gang, play a few games. You’ll be bored of playing after 3 games as your gang already has everything it could ever want and there’s nothing to aim for beyond obliterating your opponent.
 

MedMos

Gang Hero
Yak Comp 1st Place
Nov 10, 2014
1,818
4,614
183
Møn, Denmark
That which is given has no value. If you’re given everything, you’ll strive for nothing.

There’s a simple experiment you can try with ORB that we did as impatient youths. Start with 3000 credits and access to all rare trade. Allow fighters to buy xp at 1cr per xp. Remove the income tax step after games so you keep all your credits

Build a gang, play a few games. You’ll be bored of playing after 3 games as your gang already has everything it could ever want and there’s nothing to aim for beyond obliterating your opponent.
True. In our group, we rarely get past the "mid-campaign", as ill-defined as that is. Once a fair few gangers have high bs/ws and good survivability, and once you've got enough nifty toys and the xp-requirements get high enough that new levels are more rare, we simply lose interest and make new gangs.
 

Petitioner's City

Gang Hero
Nov 15, 2017
1,124
1,855
153
Edinburgh, UK
I think it might be more that the current rules zeitgeist is that “random” is bad and players should have choice in everything. I think this comes from GW games being in a competitive renaissance period where their main games are constantly striving for “balance”.

What they didn’t quite realise is that when given a choice most players will gravitate to the most competitive choice and they failed to put good checks and balances into their new system to stop people taking advantage of it.

I just did quite a lengthy post on the “income tax” from NCE and how it could be ported to N20, but what it boils down to is that the current ruleset is made to allow people to have whatever they want and that is not good.

I think there are a large group of players that would prefer an extremely more restrictive ruleset that really limited the scope and size of gangs as it would then mean that the players get to create the madness around the rules, rather than the rules creating madness for players to exploit.

I've done the income chart for three campaigns, works very well. I think @TopsyKretts does too.

The issue is that it doesn't salve the basic trade and xp issues - I think you need a random trade chart, so people don't cherry pick still those optimised items, and also random advancements, for the same issue.

This is our law-abiding chart:

D66Rare Item or Fighter Found
11-16Close Combat Weapons – roll a D6:
1-4: Non-Energy Weapons – Roll a D6:
1-3: Chain Weapon – Roll a D6:
1-2: Chainsword; 3: Chain Axe; 4: Chain Glaive, 5: Rotary Flensing Saw; 6: Heavy Chain Cleaver
4-5: Industrial Weapon – Roll D6:
1: Heavy Rock Cutter; 2: Heavy Rock Drill; 3: Heavy Rock Saw, 4: Lascutter, 5-6: Servo Claw
6: Toxin Weapon – Roll a D6:
1-4 : Stiletto Knife ; 5-6 : Stiletto Sword
5-6: Energy Weapons – Roll a D6:
1: Digi Weapon – Roll D6:
1-4, 1 Digi-Weapon; 5, 2 Digi-Weapons; 6: 3 Digi-Weapons.
2-3, Power Weapon, Roll D6:
1-2: (Roll a D6: 1-2: Power Fist, 3-4: Power Hammer, 5-6: Thunder Hammer)
3-4: (Roll a D6: 1-2: Lightning Claw, 3-4: Power Knife, 5-6: Power Sword)
5-6: (Roll a D6: 1-2: Power Axe; 3-4: Power Pick, 5-6: Power Maul)
4-6: Shock Weapon, Roll D6:
1-2: Shock Whip; 3-4: Shock Baton; 5-6: Shock Stave
21-26Ranged Weapon – roll a D6:
1-2: Pistol – roll a D6:
1-2: Las Sub-Carbine
3-4: Hand Flamer
5: Bolt Pistol
6: Roll a D6:
1: Blackpowder Pistol, 2: Flechette Pistol, 3: Needle Pistol, 4: Plasma Pistol, 5 Web Pistol, 6, Exotic Pistol: (Roll a D6: 1-3: Arc Pistol, 4-6: Inferno Pistol)
3-4: Rifle– roll a D6:
1-2: Hive Weapon – Roll a D6:
1: Bow, 2: Combat Shotgun, 3: Crossbow, 4: Lascarbine, 5: Musket, 6: Storm-Welder
3-4: Ubiquitous Special Weapon – Roll a D6:
1-2: Flamer, 3-4: Grenade Launcher (grenades extra), 5-6: Sniper Rifle
5: Boltweapon – Roll a D6:
1-5: Boltgun, 6: Storm Bolter
6: Exotic Weapon – Roll a D6:
1: Grav Gun, 2: Meltagun,
3: (Roll a D6: 1-3: Needle Rifle, 4-6: Needle Long Rifle)
4: Plasmagun, , 5: Webgun,
6: (Roll a D6: 1-3: [Roll a D6: 1-2: Arc Rifle, 3-4: Galvanic Rifle, 5-6: Radium Carbine]; 4-6: Stake-Crossbow)
5: Heavy Weapons – roll a D6:
1-2: Roll a D6: 1-2: Autocannon, 3-4: Heavy Bolter, 5-6: Missile Launcher (Missiles Extra)
3-4: Heavy Flamer
5: Roll a D6: (1-2: Lascannon, 3-4: Mining Laser, 5-6: Multi-Laser)
6: Roll a D6: (1: Grav Cannon, 2: Mole Launcher, 3: Multi-Melta, 4: Plasma Cannon, 5-6: Seismic Cannon)
6: Combi-Weapon– Roll a D6
1-3: Combi-Pistol – Roll 1D6 for each component:
Primary Component, Roll 1D6:
1: Boltpistol; 2: Laspistol; 3-4: Autopistol; 5-6: Stubgun
Secondary Component, Roll 1D6:
1-2: Plasmapistol; 3: Needler Pistol; 4-6: Hand Flamer
4-6: Combi-Rifle – Roll 1D6 for each component:
Primary Component, Roll 1D6:
1-2: Boltgun; 3-4: Lasgun; 5-6: Autogun
Secondary Component, Roll 1D6:
1: Plasmagun; 2: Meltagun; 3: Grav-Gun; 4: Needler; 5-6: Flamer
31-33Grenades and Bombs – pick either thrown Grenades or Grenade Launcher Ammunition and roll a D6 on the following lists:
Thrown Grenades – Roll a D6:
1-2: Status Grenades – Roll a D6:
1: Choke Gas Grenades; 2 : Photon Flash Grenades, 3 : Psyk-Out Grenades, 4: Rad Grenades, 5: Scare Gas Grenade, 6: Stun Grenades
3-5: Assault Grenades – Roll a D3:
1 : Anti-plant Grenades, 2: Plasma Grenades; 3: Incendiary Grenades
5: Demolitions – Roll a D6:
1: Demolitions charges; 2-3: Krak Grenades; 4-5: Blasting Charges; 6: Meltabombs
6: Bombs – Roll a D6:
1-3: Gas Trap; 4-6: Melta Trap
Grenade Launcher or Missile Launcher Ammunition – Roll a D6 :
1-3: Fissile, roll a D6: 1-4: Krak Grenades or Krak Missiles; 5-6: Plasma Grenades or Plasma Missiles
4-5: Non-Lethal, roll a D6: 1-2: Choke Gas GL Ammo; 3-4: Scare Gas GL Ammo; 5-6: Stun GL Ammo
6: Other, roll a D6: 1-3: Anti-Plant Grenades or Anti-Plant Missiles; 4-6: Photon Flash Grenades or Missiles
34-36Weapon Accessories – Roll a D6:
1-4: Additional Ammunition – Roll D6:
1: Dum Dum Bullets
2: Roll a D3: 1: Phosphor Rounds, 2: Anti-Plant Rounds, 3: Rad Rounds
3: Roll a D6: 1-3: Fragmentation Rounds, 4-6: Manstopper Rounds
4: Poisoned Arrows
5: Executioner Ammo
6: Roll a D6: 1-3: Firestorm Ammo, 4-6: Inferno Ammo
5-6: Weapon Accessory – roll a D6:
1: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher or Gunshroud
2: Infra-sight
3: Las Projector
4: Hot Shot Power Pack or Macro-Magazine
5: Mono-sight
6: Suspensors
41-43Armour – roll a D6:
1: Field Armour and Energy Shields – Roll a D6:
1-2: Conversion Field; 3: Displacer Field; 4: Energy Shield, 5-6: Refractor Field
2-3: Layers and Shields – Roll a D6:
1-2: Ablative Overlay, 3: Armoured Undersuit, 4: Assault Shield, 5: Servo Harness (Partial), 6: Servo Harness (Full)
4-6: Suit of Armour – roll a D6:
1: Carapace Armour, Roll a D6:
1-3: Light Carapace Armour; 4-6 Heavy Carapace Armour;
2: Special Flak – Roll a D6:
1-2: Layered Flak Armour, 3-4: Hardened Flak Armour; 5-6: Hardened Layered Flak Armour;
3-4: Hazard Suit;
5-6: Mesh Armour
44-46Bionics – roll a D6:
1-3: Choose one of any Mundane bionic available. One fighter in the gang may have one bionic of this class bought for them.
4-5: Choose one of any Mundane or Improved Bionic. One fighter in the gang may have one bionic of either of these classes bought for them.
6: choose one of any Mundane, Improved or Superior bionic available. One fighter in the gang may have one bionic of any of these clasesbought for them.
51-55Hive Wargear – roll a D66:
11-12: Ammo Cache
13-14: Archaeotech Device
15-16: Bio-Booster
21-22: Bio-scanner
23-24: Blindsnake Pouch
25-26: Chem Synth
31-32: Grav Chute
33-34: Guilder Cartograph
35-36: Industrial Respirator
41: Isotropic Fuel Rod
42: Jump Booster
43-44: Magnoculars
45-46: Medicae Kit
51-52: D3 Microbeads
53-54: Photo Goggles
55: Radcounter
56: Ratskin Map
61-62: Stimm-Slug Stash
63-64: Suspensor Harness
65-66: Web Solvent
56Extravagant Goods – Roll D6:
1: Roll a D6: 1-3: Exotic Furs, 4-6: Opulent Jewellery
2: Gold-Plated Gun – pick either a Common weapon or roll a D26 on this chart – you may purchase a Gold-Plated version of the determined weapon, costing 25% more credits more than normal.
3: Master-Crafted Weapon – pick either a Common weapon or roll a D26 on this chart – you may purchase a Master-Crafted version of the determined weapon, costing 25% more credits more than normal.
4: Mung Vase
5: Uphive Raiments
6: Servo Skull – Roll a D26:
11-13: Gun Skull; 14-16: Medi Skull; 21-23: Sensor Skull; 24-26: Harrier Skull
61-63Hanger-On, Roll a D66:
11-12: Ammo-Jack (You may recruit Ragnar Gunnstein instead)
13-14: Augmeticist
15-16: Brute Handler
21-22: Bullet Merchant
23-24: Chem Dealer
25-26: Data-Scrivener
31-32: Dome Runner
33-34: Fixer
35-36: Gang Look Out
41-42: Narker
43-44: Propagandist
45-46: Rogue Doc (you may recruit Doc Arachnos instead)
51-52: Shivver
53-54: Slopper (you may recruit Bigby Crumb instead)
55-56: Tech Merchant
61-66: Pick a Hanger-On of your choice, including any House-specific Hanger-Ons available to your gang
64-66Creature Comforts Roll a D6:
1-3: Exotic Beast – Roll a D6:
1-3: Critter, 4-6: Giant Rat
4-5: Brute – Roll a D6:
1-2: Jotunn Servitor Ogryn, 3-4: Luther-Pattern Ambot; 5-6: Sump Beast
If you can afford the Brute, and you are above the Reputation threshold, you recruit it to your gang. If you are below the Reputation threshold for a Brute (1 per 10 Rep), you cannot obtain the Brute.
6: Caryatid
If you have Rep 15 or above, you obtain a Caryatid; if you already have one, or if you do not have Rep 15, you may pick a single item from the Legal Trading Post worth equal to or less than (the gang’s Reputation x 10) credits.

And this is our experience chart:

D66AdvancementCharacteristic ChangeCost Increase
11-13+1 MovementUp to 5”+ 0 credits
5” to 6”+ 5 credits
Above 6”+ 10 credits
14-16+1 WSUp to 4++ 0 credits
From 4+ to 3++ 10 credits
From 3+ to 2++ 20 credits
21-23+1 BSUp to 4++ 0 credits
From 4+ to 3++ 15 credits
From 3+ to 2++ 30 credits
24-26+1 StrengthUp to 3+ 0 credits
From 3 to 4+ 5 credits
Above 4+ 10 credits
31-33+1 ToughnessUp to 3+ 0 credits
From 3 to 4+ 5 credits
Above 4+ 10 credits
34-36+1 Wounds1 to 2+ 5 credits
2 to 3+10 credits
Above 3+20 credits
41-43+1 InitiativeUp to 4++ 0 credits
From 4+ to 3++ 5 credits
From 3+ to 2++ 10 credits
44-46 +1 Attacks 1 to 2+ 5 credits
2 to 3+ 10 credits
Above 3+ 20 credits
51-53Roll a D6:
1-3: +1 Leadership;
4-6: +1 Cool.
Up to 7++ 0 credits
From 7+ to 6++ 5 credits
Above 6++ 10 credits
54-56Roll a D6:
1-3: + 1 Willpower;
4-6: +1 Intelligence
Up to 7++ 0 credits
From 7+ to 6++ 5 credits
Above 6++ 10 credits
61-63The fighter gains a skill. Roll a D6:
1-3: pick one of the fighter’s primary skill sets and roll a random skill
4-6: pick one of the fighter’s secondary sets and roll a random skill
+10 credits
64-65Special – Result Dependent on Fighter Type:
Gangers (except for Aberrants): Either:
(1) promote the fighter to a Ganger Specialist
(2) or roll for a Hive Ken skill.
(1) + 0 credits
(2) +10 credits
Specialists: Either
(1) the fighter gains a random skill from any skill set available to their gang
(2) or promote the fighter to a Champion as described in their fighter entry.
(1) + 10 credits
(2) +0 credits
Others Fighters: The fighter gains a random skill from any skill set available to their gang+ 10 credits
66Special – Pick any one Advancement from this tableAs aboveAs above


EDIT: I should note I changed the advancement costs, and balance all fighter costs against these (so a Juve who obtains exactly Ganger stats doesn't cost more, for example, or a Ganger who gains exactly Champ stats, etc). Also added in Hive Ken, etc., as fun alternatives for gangers, and have attempted to ensure the four mental stats are used more evenly. Although Toughness should cost more - I kept it low due to various starting stat lines getting too expensive, although I do wonder about it still :unsure:

EDIT 2: A number of rare items are our own items. Some rare items (boning swords, for example) remain locked to their gang lists (and far more expensive).
 
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Tiny

Hive Guilder
Tribe Council
Jul 12, 2011
3,906
9,428
178
South Wales, UK
www.tinyworlds.co.uk
True. In our group, we rarely get past the "mid-campaign", as ill-defined as that is. Once a fair few gangers have high bs/ws and good survivability, and once you've got enough nifty toys and the xp-requirements get high enough that new levels are more rare, we simply lose interest and make new gangs.

We found that the campaign got a bit stale once a few gangs were getting around the 3000 rating mark so we'd have a massive blowout scenario and start again.
 

Ardavion

Gang Hero
Nov 22, 2011
1,133
1,928
183
Slight deviation in sumping; the Dominion box is Last Chance To Buy.

Am I missing something?

You can still have the limited edition tokens added to cart when adding Dominion, so it's highly indicative that it's less about going out of stock and more about them trying to shift product they can't shift, but they can't simply have it on the site forever and they can't drop the price to make it more desirable.

To my mind, it's an attempt at pushing FOMO from the other end, and it won't work when it's supposed to be a product that gets ongoing support and releases, and the contents of the box aren't nearly good enough to have the hassle of buying it then selling/swapping the unneeded bits to recoup cost.

I fully expect someone at GW will be tasked with burning boxes as they pull the components out for individual resale at some point.
 

Kiro The Avenger

Gang Hero
Apr 4, 2018
1,453
1,901
128
Bristol, UK
Dominion was always limited, it's the direct AoS equivalant to Indomitus.
The reason it's hung around for so long when other limited editions haven't is probably two-fold. Firstly, GW produced far more than they have for other releases, one store owner told me they got 17 Dominion boxes but only 3 Beastsnaggaz. Secondly, AoS isn't nearly as popular as 40k so they weren't flying off the shelves as quickly.