Necromunda The Sump: An N17 venting thread

Thorgor

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As long as they also have non-standard weapon names, I have no issue with it. It's something they actually fixed/avoided in GotU (renaming Slate's weapon a "Custom plasma pistol" and naming Baertrum's an "Artisan needle pistol with auto loader", which are clearly unique, non-standard weapon names.)

A master-crafted hotshot laspistol is something you can make with items purchased from the trading post and, to make things worse, master-crafted weapons have an invisible special rule that is not represented by a Trait or Characteristics change. So I still don't know if Kal's weapons are supposed to get a re-roll on failed hits or not. Is "master-crafted" just a fancy title they used instead of 'custom' or 'artisan' to handwave that the weapons keep their Am 2+ (completely forgetting that it actually means something rule-wise), or does it have its usual meaning?

If it's not a mistake, then it's bad design, which imo is even worse.
 

TopsyKretts

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Unique weapons MUST have unique names. GW insists on failing to do so.
 

MusingWarboss

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What they insist on is that Necromunda is a fluffy ruleset. What they don't do is follow that up. Fluffy to them means "unfinished" as in "we wrote some stuff. It sorta works, it'll do."

Proper fluffy rules *would* include unique names for weapons as that seems to be a basic standard for non-standard weapons. Just think of any fantasy or SF story. All the unique weapons have a damn name!!!
 

Kitcar

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Q: How do you catch a rabbit?
A: Unique up on it!

I insist on telling this....
 

Punktaku

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i thought it was “how do you catch a rare, wild animal”?
 
2 comments

MusingWarboss

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*Drifts in from another thread*
We use them every game and has very few problems with it. I like a bit of random crazyness in the game.
That's because you use them with house-rules that are different from the RAW though. Having a common deck with all the cards in it and all cards being drawn at random completely changes what they do to the game.
Right, I summoned you here because, well, MrAndersson didn't want his thread taken up with non-cheese. Also I can't think of any other thread to drop this in and can't see the point of starting one specifically for it.

So, House Rules, right... this is where the 2p gets dropped. House rules I think are at their best when they're attempting to modify, correct or clarify existing rules, to attempt to keep the game running as close to intended as possible. Thorgor, when you pick up TopsyKretts here I think the comparison is a little unfair - yes, he has "corrected" Tactics cards whose implementation RAW in the books are... let's be charitable; poorly written out. I'll also just add that it's a slightly dubious mechanic when they keep discontinuing the damn things, making it difficult for newer players to "compete" for lack of a better work. A common deck or even Arbitrator owned deck that player all draw from makes more sense in that context.

This is something that has gone on since the N17 box release! Quite why they haven't addressed it themselves I don't know.

In comparison MrAndersson has completely abandoned the mechanic. Also technically a house rule but IMO a far more destructive one as he's now whipped out a whole mechanic and seemingly not replaced it with any equivalent.
MrAndersson said:
We have just thrown the cards in the trash, where they belong.
A little OTT perhaps? No attempt to rework or balance or anything, just bin. However in fairness:

MrAndersson said:
In our previous campaign, we used "mod tokens", as suggested by someone on this forum, which enabled the user to mod a die +/-1, post rolling it. One such token per 100 gang value difference.

I am currently working on an "inducement" system, similar to the one in Bloodbowl, as an alternative way to make up the difference in gang value.
So we're getting something there but they seem a lot less "fun". A lot more cold and mathematic. That was my problem with the cheesy gang approach taken, it's all based in statistics of gear. There seems to be no accounting for the randomness of what the other player(s), or Arbitrator would do. Or any elements in equally fluffy items such as missions, territories, scenery, or heaven forbid: random selection. So what happens then? Bin that lot too??

Which is why I said he may be better off looking at a different game system, N18 is just not intended to be one where you can math up a perfect hit-list, there are too many counters by design. Its clearly inherently unbalanced. We can clean some of that up but I still say do that within the spirit of the game, to retain flavor and fluff.

If it's just down to stats, probability and numbers you just end up playing Necromunda Top Trumps. Having the best gun means nothing
if the fighter gets stabbed in the back of the neck by a Juve and goes OOA, gets zombified by a plant, falls down a hole or just doesn't get selected to turn up.
A 40k mindset just doesn't mesh within this framework, unless you choose to play nothing but one-off skirmishes with the same set list.

I guess no-one wants to hear that though...
 
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Thorgor

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So, House Rules, right... this is where the 2p gets dropped. House rules I think are at their best when they're attempting to modify, correct or clarify existing rules, to attempt to keep the game running as close to intended as possible. Thorgor, when you pick up TopsyKretts here I think the comparison is a little unfair - yes, he has "corrected" Tactics cards whose implementation RAW in the books are... let's be charitable; poorly written out.
My intention was simply to clarify that TopsyKretts didn't actually endorse the tactic cards rules as written. I happen to know how he plays them because he mentioned it before but I don't think it's common knowledge ;) .

As I said, the tactics card need to either be (quite heavily) house-ruled or completely replaced with something else. I don't think you can simply remove them from the game and call it a day, as they are supposed to serve a purpose (even though they completely fail at that.)
I'd personally prefer to house-rule deck-building rules and ban some of the most offensive cards, but diluting them in a thick layer of randomness can also work to an extent.

Which is why I said he may be better off looking at a different game system, N18 is just not intended to be one where you can math up a perfect hit-list, there are too many counters by design. Its clearly inherently unbalanced. We can clean some of that up but I still say do that within the spirit of the game, to retain flavor and fluff.
I think min-maxing players are a misunderstood bunch :cry:
I can't speak for anyone else, but usually when I come up with maths and stats I don't mean "stop having fun with your toys guys, here is how you should play the game" but "eh guys, did you notice the game is hugely unbalanced in favour of <stupidly OP strategy/weapon/build>, maybe we should tweek the rules/costs a bit so that the game is more balanced and fun for everyone?"


Let's use one of the simplest game ever created as an example to try and explain my mindset: Rock/Paper/Scissors.
Assuming players are equally proficient at producing any of those three signs, it's perfectly balanced.

Now, there is a (apparently french?) variant of this game that adds a fourth sign, Well, that beats Rock and Scissors and is beaten by Paper. Does it make the game more fun? 4 is better than 3 isn't it?
Well, no. In this variant, maths say you should never play Rock, because Rock is beaten by both Paper and Well and can only beat Scissors, which make it strictly worse than Well, since it beats both Rock and Scissors and is only beaten by Paper. The end result is that any reasonable player ends up playing Well/Paper/Scissors which is the exact same thing as Rock/Paper/Scissors but with a more complicated ruleset and a trap option.
I will never play this game and I think it shouldn't exist.
Now, are people allowed to play it and have fun playing a game as flawed as this one? I think they should at the very least be made aware of the above.

What about Rock/Paper/Scissors/Lizard/Spock then? Well, it is exactly as balanced and "fun" as the original if you ask me, but YMMV about the latter as it adds more options you might find more fluffy. It does have a more complicated ruleset for no added depth though, so I'd personally prefer the more streamlined version, but I wouldn't terribly mind playing it.
 
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MusingWarboss

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I think min-maxing players are a misunderstood bunch :cry:
I can't speak for anyone else, but usually when I come up with maths and stats don't mean "stop having fun with your toys guys, here is how you should play the game" but "eh guys, did you notice the game is hugely unbalanced in favour of <stupidly OP strategy/weapon/build>, maybe we should tweek the rules/costs a bit so that the game is more balanced and fun for everyone?"
Ah, but then depend on whether the min-maxxer is using their mathematical powers for good or evil! ;)

If you're saying "Hey, if you weigh this up it actually completely skews the game, intentionally or not but we can fix it a bit though, so it's not so off" - that seems reasonable.

If it's "Hey! I worked out the exact combination of fighter profiles and weapons to kill you all on turn 1" - that seems at odds with... well... playing a game. No-one wants to go into it knowing they've lost from turn one.

Then there's "Damn, this mechanic prevents me from fielding an entire gang of multi-melta wielding Juves. Let's house rule it out." Which is of course is an extreme and dickish thing (I'm not suggesting anyone here actually does do that).
What I am saying is that sometimes, someone's "cool house rule" is someone else's "WTF dude, that's broken the game!". Which has nothing to do with mathematics but it's always worth bearing in mind the knock-on effect when heavily house ruling any mechanic.

Of course Thorgor, I know and respect your work on the YAQ and I know you have a keen eye on making sure that mechanics are tight but not constricting.
 

Trafalgar Law

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Personally I'm with Mr Anderson on the tactics cards. I won't use them and consider them to be the same as using a cheat code in a computer game. Too many are in the 'eff' you category and I think just not using them is simpler than trying to rewrite them or come up with some complicated balancing method. I won't stop other people using them, they're technically in the rules, but if you want to win in that way, well that's up to you.
 

MusingWarboss

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Personally I'm with Mr Anderson on the tactics cards. I won't use them and consider them to be the same as using a cheat code in a computer game. Too many are in the 'eff' you category and I think just not using them is simpler than trying to rewrite them or come up with some complicated balancing method. I won't stop other people using them, they're technically in the rules, but if you want to win in that way, well that's up to you.
I would say that's an implementation issue. The current Specialist Games approach to rules "fluff" is much the same as many people's approach to painting armies. They start, then get distracted and drift off onto a new project leaving the old one half finished.

With tactics cards what you have is like a screenwriters plot point card system.
"The hero enters the warehouse. BOOM! Several goons crash the area; he pulls his weapon then sees... the girl he was with last night. She walks through them and squares off to him. She's obviously betrayed him... he raises his gun and *Click*"
"Sorry Mr Bond. You are very predictable. *rattles loose bullets in her hand*"


That sort of thing. That's their intention for the cards. Does it suck to get a bad one? Yep. A powerful one played well though... its cinematic see? Now always being able to actively choose "Click", "History of Violence" etc etc etc is where they mucked up. That's where it goes into the power gaming line.

No-one wants to win though some weird Tactics Card doing all the work but if it enables a victory by being cinematic in some level and makes a memorable end... so be it.

On the other hand (and I don't want to pick on him as he made it clear he didn't want to talk further) whacking up a list with as many lascannons in as possible and then brushing off quite legitimate questions as to how that would work if the opposing player (or players) could use tactics and similar to prevent that from being dominating by saying, "ah but we just binned all that", doesn't sit right with me.
Personally I wouldn't want to win because I built a buff list that only works precisely because I've banned my opposition from using any counter to it.

YMMV.
 
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Thorgor

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That sort of thing. That's their intention for the cards. Does it suck to get a bad one? Yep. A powerful one played well though... its cinematic see? Now always being able to actively choose "Click", "History of Violence" etc etc etc is where they mucked up. That's where it goes into the power gaming line.
Eeyup. They dug their own grave with that one.

In a way, I don't understand how they could have missed that it would be a problem.
Part of their business model for N17 is selling tactics cards. They want each and every player to purchase as many tactics card packs as possible (note that I'm fully aware — or at least I strongly suspect — that it was not a design decision at all but something that was forced on the design team, it doesn't really matter though). To achieve this goal, they need to package generic gang tactics cards with every pack and make at least some of them desirable (i.e., create power creep) so that even players not interested in <gang> may want to purchase the tactics cards for <gang>. This naturally results in a large number of gang tactics cards, some of them by necessity more powerful that the ones from the starter set.

Now, how powerful is the ability to choose a card instead of drawing it at random? Well, the more cards there are in the deck, the more powerful it becomes as the more randomness it removes, and the better the best card in the deck is, the better it becomes.
In other words, this ability mechanically becomes more and more powerful whenever they publish a new card pack, and they keep publishing them regularly.
Balance was doomed from the start.

Sometimes (often), they seem to get fixated on the story-telling side of the game and forget that it's also, well, a game.
 

DArquebus

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Coming from a long BB background the cards in 3rd ed were quiet unbalanced.

Some were super powerful and some were incredibly lame. LRB4 had a similar issue in that all cards were mixed in together and so the cute fluffy ones rubbed shoulders with the game altering ones. And they were handed out randomly as inducement based on difference in team ratings. This lead to moments where teams that were well under strength got some extra cheerleaders and other random minor boosts, and one where a team that was almost exactly the same strength drew a Game Changer.

Best move they ever did (BBRC vs GWS proper as such) in later editions was to collate the cards into tiered decks and assign costs to those decks based on the impact to the game. So you could take multiple minor cards, or a very few powerful ones, all based on the team rating difference.

Other than not wishing to blow all my money on micro-transactional card packs, this is the only way I would really wish to use the cards. Same old same old all the time is boring. But so is a game divorced from meaningful player agency.. where the results rely more on the super powered cards you paid for in real money and then 'selected' vs the tactical decisions made and risks/ opportunities managed from the dice.
 

Space Truckin

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what i don't understand is if these cards are a profitable money grab marketing team mechanism, then why the hell do they stop printing them?

management team rolls 2d6...?

It makes zero sense. Their 'research' shows no one plays their games and we are all just 'collectors' - ok that explains garbage rules they dish out, but how the hell are you supposed to collect the game components when they go oop after the first print? If they are pulling that super limited 1 time only crap they kinda need to tell somebody?

And another thing if they keep f'n with their IP and changing it to cover for their mistakes. Hey my guys are really PALATINE enforcers you can choke on your Palanite GW with a side a Aevles hell maybe even Orruks is a f'n typo they got stuck with. We know there is a serious reading comprehension issue with their editing team. :facepalm:

It's 5:46am here. How's my Sumpin' so far?
;)
 

Thorgor

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It's 5:46am here. How's my Sumpin' so far?
Not bad! ;)

They seem to be cultivating FOMO with those products. They won't tell you it's a limited edition, but since everyone knows (or fears) it may be, it helps drive sales (and pre-orders)
Doing reruns may not be economically viable though, especially if the produce is outsourced.

For Palanite, I can't decide if it's juste a typo they choose to keep, or a deliberate change for something easier to copyright, or a bit of both.
 

cronevald

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Definitely feeling a bit Sumpy about the card packs selling out so quickly. The Underdog Tactics cards seem to have gone the quickest. The Intrigues deck is sold out in the UK but still available in the US. At least that one's included in the book. I've picked up just about all the cards so far, but the limited print runs and CCG aspect is wearing a bit thin for me.
 

MusingWarboss

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There’s a lot of grumbling about this. And this release was supposed to have had more stock!

Sadly this cycle of events happens each release now. :cry:

Of course this couple up with a mad panic to pre-order and grab stuff as soon as it’s out. It may well work for Games Workshop but for us customers it’s kinda crap.

I also can’t help but think as with all these releases there’s a scalper contingent sucking up multiples only to drop them on eBay in a few months. No proof other than past scalper activity.
 

TopsyKretts

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I was extremely sumpy when the card sleeves for Blood Bowl went OoP. And they keep selling new cards. Ordered a bunch of Necromunda sleeves because of that, fear they go OoP any moment. It's funny, because you'll be much better off without those cards. I don't even use them! I just like to sleeve them, just in case. Re-print them in magic size. Save yourself the trouble. That way you can include any rare cards and update FAQ'ed cards.
 
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almic85

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I was going to ask if the Underdog Tactic cards were in the Book of Judgement or not?

Anyone know if they are just the equivalent of the White Dwarf article or is there something actually new in there?
 

cardyfreak

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I don’t know if they’re in the book of judgement as I don’t have my copy yet, but the cards are definitely different to what was in the white dwarf article. The WD article only had house favours if I remember correctly, these cards are quite different to that, they give you extra xp or allow you to hire bounty hunters or recover fighters etc.
 

TabulaRasa

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I don’t know if they’re in the book of judgement as I don’t have my copy yet, but the cards are definitely different to what was in the white dwarf article. The WD article only had house favours if I remember correctly, these cards are quite different to that, they give you extra xp or allow you to hire bounty hunters or recover fighters etc.
On the other card sets on the webpage it clearly states that they are represented in the books. But this is real shitty. I've written them but no answer as of yet.