Necromunda The Sump: General hobby venting thread (Beware:grumpy grognards)

MusingWarboss

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Oct 31, 2013
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Bloodbowl does work remarkably well.
It’s also predominantly a cc game and has no scenery.

I know it’s a silly thing to bring up but in comparisons to N17+ it’s well worth noting that the scenery and your ability to be seen does have a massive impact on how things play out.

Classic example. BS2+ Van Saar on a fairly open SM table of 4’x4’ dimensions will decimate most gangs. Particularly CC heavy ones*.

I imagine it’s be a pretty different BB game if one team started with guns and mowed down the opposition on turn one.

*unless said cc gang has a silly gimmick that makes everyone who sees them soil themselves even when they’re an entire diagonal table length away!
 

TopsyKretts

Hive Lord
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More and more I think that's a weakness by itself. If games are unbalanced, add more terrain? I get the notion, but to what end? I got a "large" amount of sector mechanicus terrain back in 2017-2018 because that was 'perfect' new plastic terrain for necromunda, but turns out I didn't have nearly enough and what I did have didn't block LOS sufficiently. GW took some steps correcting this in kill team, requiring less amount of terrain but also having cover rules that ensure models are difficult/impossible to shoot at. My zone mortalis terrain works fairly well for the purpose of blocking LOS however. I totally agree large amount of terrain is fun, but I think the game should also work with medium amount.
 

Trafalgar Law

Gang Hero
Mar 14, 2017
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The optional extras in Blood Bowl also don't change the core rules or the teams; no matter how much or how little of the DeathZone supplement I choose to use, Dwarves will still be the same cost and stats, moves and blocks will still work in the same way...

Compare that to House of Blades, which changed every Escher fighter profile in terms of stats and/or cost, changed their equipment, contained stealth erratas to things like Blaze and Bottling Out... At that point it's not optional extras, it's conflicting rules. They're more like updated codexes.
Exactly, the House of books completely replaced the old gang lists. They weren't optional or modular, it was a new game. In contrast the various book of whatevers were entirely optional and not required unless you intended to use elements from those books.
 
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MusingWarboss

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Absolutely @TopsyKretts, the game should work well with a minimum of terrain and advantages of LoS and BS etc, shouldn’t allow a complete runaway victory.

If a game is terrain dependent then it better damn well be supplied with said terrain!

ORB era could just as easily be spoilt by a lack of terrain cover too, though I think the unsung heroes of that era was actually the card walkways.

Why? Well, because they weren’t very long and encouraged you to bunch up your buildings and the plastic bulkheads provided a decent amount of cover, especially when coupled with the buttresses which everyone forgets provided decent ground level cover.

I mean, it’s like they thought about it and tested it out before manufacturing it!!

I do believe a level of thought went into the ZM tiles for the Underhive box too - as noted they provide cover as well as obstacles. It’s just GW1 came out and no-one used them much as intended.

Full 3D scenery and TLoS heavily relies on gamers to populate a table with TLoS blockers and probably the #1 bit of advice I see given when people are having their gangs shot off the table is “you need more scatter terrain”.

True but wouldn’t it be nice if they’d abstracted it a little bit so that a myriad of different terrain could exist and offer some protection to players?

I’m reminded of the crater in 40k. Once you were in its boundry you were offered a cover save because the model was assumed to be actually using that feature to hide in. In TLoS you couldn’t do that as no physical model could actually hide there.

I know people might hate this suggestion but just five levels of cover 1-5 offering that as a bonus to your save (or giving you one if you have no armour) would go a small but reasonable way to aiding each other against shooting.

Different terrain could be classed as one or none of those levels or be negated entirely by the proximities of models I.e two models on the same walkway offer no bonus.

So something like an unprotected (no railings) walkway would be 0, with railings it’s 1.

A 5 would be rare, something like a vehicle stood in front of you.

In order for that to work though you’d have to have either scenery with a base footprint to confer the ability or more practically a 3” Zone around each fighter (use a template) to determine which features are Available to that fighter.

Or something. I’m waffling now. Anyway... stop shooting my fighters! It’s not my fault that modern GW SM scenery is so tall and spindly it offers at ground level as much protection as a tissue paper condom. 😉
 
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TopsyKretts

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Haha those craters brought back fond memories, cheers!

Tempting to celebrate kill team's effort on this. People have mixed opinions about that game, but it does give radical boost to moving around without being shot at. A fighter cannot shoot at a target through any "heavy terrain" unless that heavy terrain is either directly in front of the attacker or the target. And also, if a fighter doesn't attack (when given stealth order), it can only be shot at if out in the open (invisible while in terrain!). Perhaps this would be too drastic in necromunda? But it makes all-melee factions competitive.
 
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NoOneII.

Gang Champion
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Tempting to celebrate kill team's effort on this.
The new KT indeed has a good hybridization of TLoS and abstraction.
While on first read it seems unintuitive (and the way they explain it is pretty convoluted), it works really well.
It preserves the organic feel of TLoS, but solves most of the meh aspects of it.
 

almic85

Cranky Git
Oct 30, 2014
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Sounds like "hiding" in ORB/NCE. Which I always forget to do.

Hiding is still something that people forget about in N17 as well.

If you go prone and are in any type of cover you can’t be targeted.

Much like ORB/NCE though if you do use it you start to slow the game right down to a more tactical speed.

My biggest issue with N17 is actually the disparity of the rules (too many books to look through to find the rules) and the number of hidden errata in each subsequent book. The two compound because there is no official list of what order the books were actually released in so in 5 years time you might not remember the order of the errata (that’s if they aren’t all replaced by then).

The strength of shooting is also exacerbated by the official rules for terrain placement which allow a minimum placement of 3 terrain pieces and a single piece of scatter terrain in extreme circumstances. It would be better if they just said to put down 4-10 pieces of large terrain and 4-10 pieces of scatter terrain.

Anyway that’s my little whinge for the day.
 

TopsyKretts

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Prone is such a high cost of what hiding fighters want to do! In Kill Team, you can hide without any effort. In N17, you need to spend an action and the next activation is handicapped because of it. In Kill Team, I go into hiding for fighters that are running across the board. This solves 2 purposes. Too far away to charge, so you can hide to protect from being shot at. Or to take objectives (also doesn't require any extra actions to take).
 

Jayward

Ganger
Aug 4, 2020
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Wasn't Spring Up essentially a general rule in the old edition of Necromunda, rather than an Agility skill? I'm sure anyone could escape pinning with an initiative test. That changes the cost-benefit ratio quite a bit.
 

Thorgor

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Hiding in N17 is in my opinion mostly a passive thing that happens when you are hit while in cover (with the exception of template-wielding fighters who can hide and still shoot without any penalty)
 

almic85

Cranky Git
Oct 30, 2014
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Plus Oldmunda had Overwatch as a standard thing that all fighters could do.

So games could easily devolve into hiding/overwatch stand offs until someone got bored.

Really one of the big issues with N17 is that it is just too easy to get a 3+ to hit or better, either though advancements, weapon bonuses or even just the aim action, which have all made hitting your target a lot easier.

Coupled with a significant increase in damage 2 weapons (and multi wound fighters) and shooting seems to have become a much bigger threat than in NCE.

There are a lot of very small incremental changes that all add up to make shooting more deadly.
 

TopsyKretts

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The Outlander Campaign requires one of the players to take on the role of an Arbitrator.
Another campaign unplayable for me and my friends :( Same old 7 cycle (3-1-3) blue-print with some additional flavour on top...