Necromunda The Sump: General hobby venting thread (Beware:grumpy grognards)

Kitcar

Gang Hero
Jan 3, 2017
1,763
1,472
133
St. Louis, Illinois, USA
This linlk reminds me of a sumpworthy whinge - Every time I log onto bl**dy forge world, I have to demonstrate my knowledge of what a bus is... and every time they show planes, I feel the need to say, well, that could be an Airbus?
The reason for the pictures being ID'd like that is you are teaching AI to search photos. I don't do them. I don't do Forgeworld for that reason. I would call, but there is no number. Lost this customer.
 

Troubled Child

Gang Champion
Jan 2, 2018
465
1,004
93
UK
I feel like the new Morgan Ra makes the new Dark Reapers worse, even if he is stood on the most awkward of tactical rocks. His menacing visage is just going to make them look more like rejects from a kids TV show when stood next to each other.
 

ntw3001

Gang Hero
Feb 17, 2011
1,220
2,212
118
35
Essex, UK
I actually find myself not wanting to grumble but it just feels like more 40k-ification of Necromunda.
You’ve had troops, got HQ units, last release gave you Elites... now you’re getting fast attack and potentially heavy support.

At that point you’re just playing overly complicated 40k.

I really and truly thought that House of Chains was going to be released alongside a White Dwarf mini-codex for Goliaths. I was not correct, and I don't know whether to credit or criticise them. Did they have the idea and show restraint, or did they just not think of it? Or, maybe they had the idea, tried to get it done, and wound up unable to deliver due to difficulty organising the crossover between departments.
 

Heart of Storm

Gang Hero
Mar 8, 2019
855
1,286
103
Gonna chime in here on the potential Ash Wastes expansion to say I'm not excited. I'm ruled out on Necromunda, I enjoyed playing the game when it was relatively simpler (in GotU/hardback rulebook days) I've not quite got my head round all of the "House of" rules, and still don't use intrigues / allies as we tend to play low points campaigns or skirmishes because time is short.

So new rules and complications is already off-putting, yet the big deal for me is, despite the (baffling) desire for it, I cant see how vehicle rules can work in this game as designed. As others have said 'munda is a game about dense cover and elevation, not about doing donuts on a dune buggy in the desert.

Unless this is a spin off, updated GorkaMorka using your Necromunda models is see this being just more unbalanced bloat.


On a sumpworthy tangent my heart has been yearning for simpler times, so I recently found a copy of the Mordheim rulebook online. Having read that I figured I'd do some digging to see what expansion material there is.

Turns out, if GW don't ruin a gang by drowning it in broken or poorly playtested rules and gangs, it looks like the community is more than willing to take up the gauntlet. There is a stupid number of warbands on Broheim. Fortunately that can all be ignored in favour of the print rulebook and annual...
 

DamianK

Ganger
Nov 15, 2020
86
149
33
I know this might be heresy even in the sump, but lately I've stumbled on the grimdark future firefight (with gang Wars expansion) and the simplicity of the rules is so refreshing and attractive compared to what necromunda has become, that I'm considering switching the rulesets (but still using the awesome necro minis that I already have)
 

Petitioner's City

Gang Hero
Nov 15, 2017
1,333
2,264
153
Edinburgh, UK
I don't know about people feeling ash wastes are out of place, we've had the ash wastes twice before (in Necromunda magazine and in Fanatic Magazine), and both worked really well.

And yes, you can make vehicles and beasts work well with the action system. The board needs to become bigger, but overall it is possible to have houseruled this.

Here is our example, which meshes the old ash wastes and gorkamorka rules with the modern activation system:

Using Vehicles and Beasts​

Types of Mounts​

There are three kinds of mounts in the game.
  • Bikes or riding beasts usually only carry a single fighter, giving them very high speed but offering little protection.
  • Vehicles or big beasts can carry several fighters, and give substantial protection to passengers.
  • Caravans are featured in the Caravan Heist scenario, and are considered to tough to destroy – however many of the rules below apply to caravans as well.

Drivers and Passengers​

Each mount, whether it is a bike, a riding beast, a vehicle or a big beast, has a key rider, who is the driver of the vehicle in a given battle. The driver and the vehicle/beast are treated as a single model during the battle, unless your driver leaves the vehicle or becomes incapacitated. If the vehicle is taken Out of Action, the driver is too. Please note, caravans’ drivers are not members of the gang.
Any other fighters on a vehicle are passengers. Some mounts may not have passengers, but the larger they are the more they can have. On bikes and riding beasts, only members of the gang, not hangers on, brutes or hired guns, may drive or ride in them – all fighters take up 1 space on the bike. On vehicles, most fighters take up 1 space, but Slave Ogryn gang fighters and all gangs’ Brutes take up the space of two passengers on a vehicle. For both bikes and vehicles, exotic beasts and servo skulls do not take up any passenger spaces, however.

Movement​

Mounts move differently from fighters-on-foot.
Movement is done by the driver in lieu of other actions they may do – there are four movement actions for mounts:
  • Drive (Basic)
  • Charge (Double)
  • Fast Speed (Basic)
  • Slow Speed Manoeuvre (Double)
Drivers may only make a single drive (Basic) or Charge (Double) action during a round; any other movement actions they make must be Fast Speed or Slow Speed Manoeuvre.

Drive (Basic)​

When doing this, the vehicle may move up the movement characteristic of the vehicle. It may not climb vertically upwards or downwards, nor use stairs.
A vehicle or mount may only cross a gap equal to half the length of its base, and it may only leap a gap to a lower level rather than the same level or a higher level.
Finally, during a Drive (Basic) action, a mount can make up to two turns:

Turning​

In reality, a turning mount describes an arc, which we represent by a series of pivots of up to 45° to the left or right. A vehicle can turn up to twice during a Drive (Basic) action.
During that movement it may make two turns. Each turn can be up to 45º and the vehicle may not move less than 1” or more than half its Movement before a turn, and it must move at least 1” after each turn. Too slow and it’s not able to traverse the turn, too fast and the driver will struggle to keep control. Note that a vehicle must move at least 1″ before turning, it cannot turn at all if it does not move.
Astute players will also take note that vehicles pivot about their midpoint rather than from their front. This actually makes the turns slightly tighter and looks more convincing too.
turning.png

A Goliath vehicle with Movement 6” wants to get through a narrow gap in some rocks using its Move engines. The player controlling it makes it move 2” and then turns it 45º. It then has 4” of movement left and one turn. It may not move 4” and turn though – that’s too fast to make the turn! Instead it can move 3” and then make a second 45º turn. The vehicle then needs to make a 1” movement to complete the turn.

Charge (Double)​

A driver may also do a Charge (Double) action with their mount, either ramming, riding up to or riding over their target.
The mount moves by its Movement, adding half its Movement characteristic to the distance, as with a normal charge, in a straight line at the target. All unarmed attacks and attacks made using the fighter or mount’s strength gain +1 Strength when Charging.
If a mount charges a vehicle/big beast or a stationary object like a door, it simply stops at the target and makes Close Combat Attacks as normal.
However, when a mount Charges a fighter-on-foot or a bike/riding beast, they can choose either to stop their charge at the target, or they make choose to run over the target.
  • If they stop at the target, complete the close combat as normal, with each party making attacks as normal.
  • If running over the target, the mount does not stop at the Enemy target, instead making its full Charge Movement (M + half”) in a straight line bisecting the target. This occurs as long as there is space for the mount to proceed, including over the target.
A bike/riding beast’s driver may only make a maximum of two Attacks against the enemy with either one of their weapons with the Melee trait, unarmed attacks, or one Sidearm.
A vehicle/big beast makes one unarmed attack using the vehicle’s Strength.
If they survive the attack, the enemy fighter must pass an Initiative test in order to make any reaction attacks against the mount.
If the charge means that the mount encounters another enemy, combat may occur again. If the terrain prevents the charge from continuing, the charge stops.
Please note, flyers may only charge other Flyers.

Fast Speed (BASIC)​

If a driver wishes to make a second movement-based action during their activation after either Driving or Charging, they must make a Fast Speed (Basic) action, pushing the mount dangerously hard. A bike or riding beast can move up to its total movement, while a vehicle or big beast can move up to half its total movement. You may not make any turns during this action. Perform an Initiative test before moving, applying a -1 modifier if you move more than half its total movement. If passed, the movement succeeds as planned. If failed, roll a D6.
D6Result
1The vehicle spins – roll a scatter dice to determine which direction it’s now facing
2Move the vehicle D6” forward and then roll a scatter dice to see which way it’s pointing.
3Roll a D6 to determine which direction to turn the vehicle 45º (1 – 3 left, 4 – 6 right). Then move the vehicle D6” forward.
4+Move the vehicle only D6” forward.

SLOW SPEED MANOEUVRES (3-Point Turns)​

This might come as a surprise but taking the time to perform tricky reverse moves is not a particularly good idea in combat! Vehicles can reverse but it’s very slow compared to all other movement. That said if you get into a tight spot you’ll have no choice!
To reverse you’ll need to perform a Slow Speed Manoeuvre (Double) action. This happens instead of normal movement. During it you may move 3” in total split into three 1” increments. After each 1” move you may make a turn of up to 45º. These 1” moves can be forwards or backwards.

Embarking and Disembarking​

Many mounts can carry passengers; to get onto a mount, be it your own or an enemy’s, you must embark it. To get off, usually you would want to safely disembark.
A model may embark a mount by being within 1”; if they are they may perform an Embark (simple) action. The fighter then becomes a passenger.
Similarly, a model on a mount – be it the driver or a passenger – can disembark by performing a Disembark (Simple) action.

Charging at a mount​

Generally you have to board a mount to perform close combat attacks against it. However, if the vehicle is stationary (it did not move in the last round, and hasn’t moved yet this round), perform a charge as normal, and then perform attacks as normal, picking which part of the vehicle you are attacking. When the mount makes reaction attacks, the vehicle/big beast or the driver of the bike/riding beast makes reaction attacks as normal.

Charging on or off a Mount​

However if a vehicle has moved, you need to board it. During mounted combat in the Badlands, often gangers will board enemy mounts or jump off their own to attack the enemy.
A vehicle/big beast can be boarded. Any fighters on the ground may make a Charge and Embark (Double) action. They charge as normal directly towards an enemy vehicle/big beast, and embarks the mount if they reach within 1”. If they do not have sufficient movement to get within 1”, they must stop at the maximum distance of their charge. If they board the mount, they can immediately make a free Fight (Basic) action against the driver, passengers or vehicle in order of priority (1) any passengers, (2) either the driver or any part of the vehicle itself.
A fighter on a mount may make a charge action from the vehicle. Place the fighter in base-to-base contact with the vehicle, they then make a standard move directly towards an enemy fighter or biker/rider, becoming Engaged or boarding another mount if they reach within 1”. If they do not have sufficient movement to get into base to base contact, they must stop at the maximum distance of their charge. If they are Engaged at the end of this move, or boarded the enemy vehicle, they can immediately make a free Fight (Basic) action.
To charge onto another vehicle from their vehicle, however, fighters need to leap. The vehicle should be within their Move distance, and the fighter must make an Initiative test, with a -1 modifier if the target vehicle has moved already that Round. If failed, they fall to the ground and are pinned, suffering one S3 Damage 1 hit if ground-vehicles, or one S5 Damage 1 Ap ‘-1’ if a flyer. If successful, they complete their charge and embark the other vehicle.

Fighting and Retreating​

If a bike/riding beast or vehicle/big beast is engaged in combat by a fighter external to it, they may either perform fight (basic) actions using the vehicle’s WS, S and A, or perform a Retreat (Basic) action. The driver or a bike or riding beast must pass an Initiative test as normal to move D6”, but a vehicle automatically moves D6”. Each enemy fighter that is Engaged with the mount can attempt reaction attacks as normal if they pass an Initiative check.
If enemy fighters are on the mount, the driver and any passengers may attempt to fight them off. Drivers of vehicles/big beasts may only make unarmed attacks, while drivers of bikes/riding beasts with sidecars may use one sidearm or melee weapon.

Passenger Actions​

Passengers have restricted actions as long as they are on a vehicle. They may shoot their own weapons, or use the fixed weapons of bikes/riding beasts and vehicles/big beasts. If a mount has moved more than 6”, they suffer a -1 penalty to their BS when shooting their own weapons but fixed weapons are unaffected.
They may perform fight (basic) actions against enemy passengers or enemies engaged with the mount.
Finally, if a driver is ever incapacitated – either seriously injured or out of action – a passenger can perform a Takeover (Simple) action. If they pass an Intelligence test, they become the driver of the mount. A seriously injured driver becomes a passenger, unless the new driver flings them overboard, in which case they suffer a S3 D1 hit (or if from a flyer, a S5 D1 Ap-1 hit).

Being pinned and Seriously injured​

When a mount is struck by fire, its driver and passengers may become pinned. This affects them differently than on the ground.
If a mount is ever subject to something which would see the driver be pinned (stunned or shaken in driving parlance), the driver and any passengers must take an Initiative test. If the test is passed, a fighter ignores the effects of pinning. If they fail, the fighter is pinned as normal. Seismic and Flash attacks will pin a driver or passenger automatically if they are hit by them.
If passengers are ever subject to something which sees them pinned, other passengers and the driver are unaffected.
If a vehicle’s driver is ever seriously injured or goes out of action, the vehicle spins using the scatter dice, then moves D6” in that direction, and then all passengers must test to see if they are pinned. A bike is removed from play, but a vehicle/big beast remains in play as a stationary vehicle but cannot be driven for the remainder of the game, unless (a) the driver recovers in the End Phase of a round, or (b) another fighter (friend or foe) performs a Takeover (Simple) action while embarked on a vehicle/big beast. Perform an intelligence test for the fighter; if passed, they become the driver, if failed, they remain a passenger on the stationary vehicle.
If a seriously injured driver is on a vehicle when it is taken over, they either become a passenger, or are flung overboard, in which case they suffer a S3 D1 hit (or if a flyer, a S5 D1 Ap-1 hit).
If a passenger is Pinned or Seriously Injured, perform an Initiative test (with a -1 Modifier if Seriously Injured). If passed, they remain on the vehicle. If failed, they fall off behind it, and suffer a S3 D1 hit.

Stationary Vehicles​

Vehicles that are not flyers that did not move in the past round, and have not yet moved this round, or flyers which have landed, are considered stationary until their driver moves them.
A stationary vehicle counts as a bit of static terrain and not a vehicle – at least in terms of boarding and hand-to-hand combat. Instead of using boarding action rules normal hand-to-hand combat rules apply – it’s much easier to do horrible things to an opponent if you’re not trying not to fall off a speeding buggy or beast!

Skimmer​

Bikes/riding beasts and vehicles/big beasts can be upgraded to skimmers, which are arcane vehicles that traverse above the ground but only a few metres.
In most respects, skimmers operate like other mounts except when making a Move or Charge action, the skimmer ignores all terrain 2” or less in height and can never fall. They may not, however, ignore impassable terrain or walls, and may not end their movement with their base overlapping an obstacle or another fighter’s base.
However, If the driver is ever seriously injured or taken out of action, the skimmer crashes. Remove it from play. The driver and any passengers suffer each D3 hits at S3 D1 Ap ‘–‘, and if they survive are placed D3” away from the skimmer in places indicated by the scatter dice.
If the skimmer ever collides with something taller than 2” (for example, due to the driver being insane, being on fire, enemy psychic powers, etc), the driver and any passengers suffer D3 hits at S3 D1 and are considered to be pinned at the base of the object if they survive. The skimmer is removed from play.
If a passenger ever falls off the vehicle (due to knockback, being Dragged, being Pinned, etc.), they are placed D3” away from the vehicle, and suffer 1 hit at S3 D1 and are Pinned.

Flyers​

Bikes/riding beasts and vehicles/big beasts can be upgraded to flyers. Flyers include airships, jetpack suits, gyro-copters, flying beasts and other arcane ways to cross the ash wastes, traversing from a few metres above ground to very high up. A flyer operates slightly differently, where in it trades protection from charges and attacks for greater vulnerability for passengers who might fall off.
A flyer may move over terrain or models 6” or less in height without penalty, and cannot be Charged or Engaged in Close Combat, except by other flying mounts and fighters with Jump Boosters.
Template weapons shot from the ground cannot hit a flyer, but blast weapons and other ranged weapons might. Attacks against flyers should be measured against their bases, to a point 6” higher.
Drivers and passengers may become pinned as normal. Make an Initiative test, if passed they are not pinned, if failed they are pinned as normal.
If the driver is ever seriously injured or taken out of action, the flyer crashes. Remove it from play. The driver and any passengers suffer each D3 hits at S5 D1 Ap -1, and if they survive are placed D3+1” away from the last position of the flyer in places indicated by the scatter dice (they may suffer further damage if they fall into Pitfalls, etc.)
If the flyer ever collides with something taller than 6” (for example, due to the driver being insane, being on fire, enemy psychic powers, etc), the driver and any passengers suffer D3 hits at S5 D1 Ap -1 and are considered to be pinned at the base of the object if they survive. The flyer is removed from play.
While flying it is very hard to embark or disembark a flyer. Fighters may only embark the flyer from the ground using Grapnel Launchers, using jump boosters, or by leaping or grapnelling from other Flyers. Passengers can only disembark safely by using drog rigs, grav-chutes, jump bolsters, or grapnel launchers. They may choose to jump down from the flyer, or leap to nearby structure, be it voluntarily, because of being on fire, or for other reasons – the flyer is considered to be 6” high. If they do, they suffer 1 hit at S5 D1 Ap -1 and (if they fail an initiative test with the usual modifiers) are Pinned.
If a passenger ever falls off the vehicle (due to knockback, being Dragged, being Pinned, etc.), they are placed D3” away from the vehicle, and suffer 1 hit at S5 D1 Ap -1 and are Pinned.
To land the flyer, and allow passengers to safely embark or disembark, the driver may perform a Land (Basic) action. The flyers moves half it movement forward, then lands on the ground, counting as a stationary vehicle, and may not move until a driver performs a Take-Off (Basic) action. Any fighters may embark or disembark normally while it is on the ground. When taking off, the flyer lifts off, moving half its movement forward, and counts as a flyer again.

Overall, the ash wastes is part of Necromunda's history, and there are many fine examples of ash wastes rules here and elsewhere, and many fine examples of miniatures too.

While I'm not sure how SG will do it, and it could be as flawed as other releases, if doesn't stop it from being a nice return to the game's history and something which has been threaded through the modern release too (see especially House of Iron, but also the other lore bits and bobs).
 

ClockworkOrange

Executive Officer in charge of Pandemics & Trolls!
Staff member
Yak Comp 1st Place
Tribe Council
Dec 29, 2012
6,392
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Nottingham
🤣 It’s like they see what we do for Tribemeet UK and then copy us [shakes fist at the GW man] we did the Ashwastes about two years ago……whilst I will welcome new vehicles to convert etc that’s kinda the point making ramshackle stuff from other things.

The old rules for vehicles are fairly clunky so I doubt they can make it worse (hmmm) it was not uncommon to go into a spin or damage cycle of rolling millions of d6 results. We changed them at the last meet with sump sea ships so that the vehicles were basically mobile scenery that you couldn’t kill, it worked much better.
 

JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
1,472
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Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Gonna chime in here on the potential Ash Wastes expansion to say I'm not excited. I'm ruled out on Necromunda, I enjoyed playing the game when it was relatively simpler (in GotU/hardback rulebook days) I've not quite got my head round all of the "House of" rules, and still don't use intrigues / allies as we tend to play low points campaigns or skirmishes because time is short.
Thats the current goal of YCE ruleset. Less bullshit, bigger focus on polishing already existing things.

I'm not too happy about vehicles either, because they would require a bigger open battlefield to feel right. And for crying out loud, we still have basic rules being weird and clunky, we do not need additional addons on top of them.
 

kendoka

Ganger
Nov 20, 2015
142
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Skellefteå, Sweden
The reason for the pictures being ID'd like that is you are teaching AI to search photos.
No. This is not even remotely true (and would not make any sense).
Captchas are used to keep webcrawlers/bots/AI away.
Still annoying though.

Edit: Thorgor (below) is correct - and my text above is badly written.
Those who *provide* captchas do it to train AIs in text and image recognition.
What I ment to say was that the only *reason FW use Captcha* is to stop unwanted traffic.
 
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Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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No. This is not even remotely true (and would not make any sense).
Captchas are used to keep webcrawlers/bots/AI away.
They are used to do both. Every captcha consists of a solved and an unsolved problem. The solved one is used to check whether you are a human, and the unsolved one to train an AI who is fed your solution.
 

Kitcar

Gang Hero
Jan 3, 2017
1,763
1,472
133
St. Louis, Illinois, USA
I careered in identifying misapplication of software. Some by design and some by misuse. There are more bona fide and cheaper ways of filtering bots out. Your cookie pattern would be a start.

EDIT: My favorite cookie pattern is the tree, it holds the most icing. :D
 

MusingWarboss

Hive Guilder
Oct 31, 2013
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I don't know about people feeling ash wastes are out of place, we've had the ash wastes twice before (in Necromunda magazine and in Fanatic Magazine), and both worked really well.
I don’t think people are fussed about Ash Wastes as a setting but more that the concept of vehicular combat seems out of place in the dense multilevel underhive. If it was the occasional thing maybe it would fit but overall it seems like they’re pitching Gorkamorka again and that needs a very specific environment to play in, one that doesn't seem to sit well with how current Necromunda is designed to play. How often have you seen advice that "you need more terrain" or "more cover terrain".

Older versions of Ash Wastes would be for older editions of Necromunda which were based heavily on 40k 2nd which already had vehicle rules, so I guess as a ganger is basically a guardsman it wouldn’t break the system too much (though its basically 40k again at that point).
With this new Version you have gangs out of setup as marksmen or CC specialists. How do they work in the sort of open landscape that needs vehicles? The only way seems to be to have a transport take the CC troops to somewhere and drop them off for a scrap. The marksmen can just pick off whoever.
Which is basically Gorkamorka again.

Where Ash Wastes does come in to its own is as a very specific setting - so if you're playing an Ash Wastes campaign you're in that environment and can use those vehicles - i.e. Its its own separate game, detached from the Necromunda core. Where it gets worrying is that once (if) they've issued fancy new vehicle kits to each gang then the power level escalates and suddenly these things become requested in non-Ash Waste games too. After all if you've splashed out a chunk of cash on your fancy vehicle you want to use it, right?

Its probably undue worrying and the whole thing is most likely set up to be a big variant of Caravan Raid following the 3.1.3 format using the Plastic Land Train as effectively the scenery portion of a big box release. No doubt Nomads have a mount or something and you'll get a sprue of Orlocks to do stuff with. I mean, thats what the trailer looks like.
 
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