Necromunda The Sump: General hobby venting thread (Beware:grumpy grognards)

Mr. M

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The recent WC promo piece on for the Ash Wastes has a video where one of the designers talks (about the 3:00 mark) about how the new setting allows for shanty towns protecting resources, maybe with enforcer marshals, to create a wild west theme; or a massive cliff structure. These themes and settings were not only available, but very prevalent in the existing hive-based Necromunda games. The shanty settlements in the underhive on the "frontier" of the deep depths, where the domes had collapsed to such a state that many had merged into massive, ruin-strewn caverns (with cliffs, if you so desired). I mean, the "Necromunda wild west" has been done pretty much since the game first came out. If vehicles are supposed to be the big selling point, the video was very light on details and definitely didn't play up that aspect... Instead it just seems to offer the same experience that could be had in the existing underhive (given a little modeling and storytelling creativity) just with dust storms and unstable ground... Oh wait - pretty much the exact same stuff could already happen in the underhive.

I understand why some people are excited for the vehicle rules (to the extent that someone can get excited for GW rules these days), and I can really appreciate how the new setting will allow people whose thing is modeling vehicles to let their creativity shine (I'm actually really looking forward to seeing the vehicles people scratch build - best part of the impending AW game in my opinion). It's just that so much seems to be possible already within the existing (or older versions) of the Necromunda rules, and if AW is going to be a hybrid vehicle-and-pedestrian game it doesn't seem to offer anything that couldn't be done by porting any of the myriad vehicle rules from other GW games (or made by fans) to what exists now.

The more I hear about the Ash Wastes, the more it feels like the cynical "monetization" of a formerly wonderful game and setting; a deliberate strip-mining of nostalgia and creativity to turn a quick buck, at the expense of ruining the long-term viability of the game. I don't subscribe to the theory that adding vehicles will expand the player base. To the contrary I think it will divide the already small player base, make it even more difficult to find compatible groups of players, and ultimately drive down interest because of this. I think this has already happened to a smaller extent with the "House of" book release.

Will the next "expansion" feature some sort of pseudo-Space Marine? That's about the only thing missing at this point.
 

Stoof

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The more I hear about the Ash Wastes, the more it feels like the cynical "monetization" of a formerly wonderful game and setting; a deliberate strip-mining of nostalgia and creativity to turn a quick buck

Some of us have had that feeling since Gang War 2.

I watched the designer chat video and also thought one chap in particular was going on about how "we thought we could do this, nobody's done this and we've never been here or done this", new incredible things nobody had ever thought was possible before. Clearly not realising the community had been doing those things since 1996, and they're all entirely possile in ORB, NCE or N17+ already with a minimal amount of creativity.

I also took note that the hints that they're "done" with the Underhive are getting more firm, which might even be a good thing - stability at long last?

Will the next "expansion" feature some sort of pseudo-Space Marine? That's about the only thing missing at this point.

Spyrers I should think.
 
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MusingWarboss

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The more I hear about the Ash Wastes, the more it feels like the cynical "monetization" of a formerly wonderful game and setting; a deliberate strip-mining of nostalgia and creativity to turn a quick buck, at the expense of ruining the long-term viability of the game.
I’m not sure about damaging the long term viability of the game, the basics should be stable enough for a long time.
Though this does seem like at least a more logical cash grab than releasing the gang rules for the 6th time with a few new extras.

This is something that they’ve said they’re gonna do. Ash Wastes, Sump Sea, Different Hives and In Spaaaaaaaaace.



All things which sound like they have f-all to do with scrubby little gangs hiding out in the depths of a dystopian hell hole. In fact they sound like they should be different games set on the same planet (though Gorkamorka shows even that is not necessary).

I think it will divide the already small player base, make it even more difficult to find compatible groups of players,
I did speak of this recently. It is a concern as you can already see with the few gang lists released already that there is resistance to buying yet more rules and that player groups inevitably get the “peer pressure” when someone buys the new rules or kits and wants to use them. It becomes an escalating issue.

Adding vehicles to the mix is going to take that further as if you’ve splashed your cash on a vehicle then you’re gonna want to use it.

and I can really appreciate how the new setting will allow people whose thing is modeling vehicles to let their creativity shine
Absolutely. Though with the caveat that I think people should wait and see what the rules are for your gangs!
So many people jumping the gun on this online, building up squadrons of cars, trucks, war rigs, bikes and buggies because there still seems to be this perception that we’re getting high-octane Gorkamorka meets Gaslands Mad Max Action - whereas what we’ve actually seen so far looks nothing like that.
You’ve got some bug riders, a couple of buggies and a land train that is most likely slow as...

Seeing the trajectory of gangs so far this edition it’s gonna be more Wacky Races meets Driving Miss Daisy.

I think there may be some disappointed people IF as seems likely you’re limited to your own gangs unique transports and a few generic but specific vehicles (like the cargo-8). Especially if they’ve just built a load of stuff they can’t use.

it doesn't seem to offer anything that couldn't be done by porting any of the myriad vehicle rules from other GW games (or made by fans) to what exists now.
I said similar yesterday:
I love the hive setting, it’s so unique I can’t think of another game that’s explicitly designed for scenery that can span multiple levels and interlink them with walkways like Necromunda does.

I can think of numerous games that have vehicles and people on foot. Even in wastelands. I’ve yet to see what’s so unique about AW.
It’s kinda strange because if you’ve made a game with inner cities gangs then release an expansion where they inexplicably go on holiday (ho ho GW) and fight in a rural setting... that’s a bit weird.
 
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Sundown Dreamer

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I also thought to myself: oha, now the designers need to come back to this and have a nice chat. But that always means that someone wants to draw attention to certain aspects and thus distract from other things and questions. It's also disappointing when Necromunda FB doesn't answer the question of whether the book will also be available separately. - Normally I would think yes, but the hardcover in Ash Waste possibly also mean it won't happen?

Accordingly, combat should obviously be tough, and the climate of the Ashen Wastes is adamantly unforgiving of mistakes. The terrain uninspired and not really new. Plus a few references to Max Max and post-apocalyptic car games. The Cargo-8 Ridgehauler may have only been brought forward to calm expectations, but Ash Waste even made his first painting videos available. So it probably won't be long now?
 
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Sundown Dreamer

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Oh dear, what do my delighted eyes discover on WHC: The Battle Report for Necromunda Ash Waste is apparently only available behind the Warhammer+ paywall?!!?

This is once again a very great sad machinations.

While I'm always excited to see what's new for Necromunda, apart from the Cargo-8 Ridgehauler I'm not particularly interested in getting started with Ash Waste. Battle reports are then actually there to give us a feel for the rules and an idea how the game plays. If they don't longer dare to show that in advance, that's not exactly encouraging and promising.
 

Pagumb

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Oh dear, what do my delighted eyes discover on WHC: The Battle Report for Necromunda Ash Waste is apparently only available behind the Warhammer+ paywall?!!?

This is once again a very great sad machinations.

While I'm always excited to see what's new for Necromunda, apart from the Cargo-8 Ridgehauler I'm not particularly interested in getting started with Ash Waste. Battle reports are then actually there to give us a feel for the rules and an idea how the game plays. If they don't longer dare to show that in advance, that's not exactly encouraging and promising.
Master manipulators GW are not.

We wait for the release…if it’s good we’ll play and/or buy it…if it isn’t we’ll take what we want from it and adapt that into something worth spending our time and money on. If it’s a clusterf@#* we’ll lament the missed opportunity and return to the sump or the Eye or the Underhive.
 
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ClockworkOrange

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I’m pretty chill about it all. I just take what’s cool model wise and carry on otherwise as if the new version(s) don’t exist. I only play the NCE once a year (admittedly it’s a three day frenzy when I do 🤣🤣) so it doesn’t take much effort to ignore the new one.

GW still get my money occasionally but I spread it around lots of manufacturers and mainly get GW stuff 2nd hand from EBay to convert. I like some of the new Ashwastes stuff especially the cargo 8, but there’s no way I’ll build it as GW intend 🤪 that’s madness!
 

MedMos

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Yep I’ve probably said this before but at some point, I think in the early 2010’s, the hobby to me became building my own unique stuff with its own stories and lore. Oh and PLOGing excessively when I do 🤣🤣
Definitely! But also building in and around other yakkers' lore and creations. Honestly, the tribe has seen my hobby develop and flourish, even though I probably play less games every year than I used to play every month. *Tips cap to @Malo and the many yakkers that make this place what it is*
 

Stoof

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Taking this briefly from GW to the "General Hobby Venting" theme - Anyone feeling salty about the price of GW kits should go buy themselves a Revell Junkers JU87G. GW stuff may be expensive, but you can be pretty much guaranteed that, for instance, both halves of an airframe will be the same length.
And there won't be 1mm wide gaps to fill in the body when it's properly assembled.
And the locating holes will have been moulded as holes not just vague dimples you have to drill out before you can actually locate the pins designed for them.
And there won't be enough flash to make another smaller Stuka just from shavings.
Revell have been in this game since the late 60's I think, and GW blows them out of the water for quality and ease of use, I'm frankly quite amazed how poor the Revell kit is for a kit designed in 2010 - it's worse than the kits I built as a kid.
 

Pagumb

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Taking this briefly from GW to the "General Hobby Venting" theme - Anyone feeling salty about the price of GW kits should go buy themselves a Revell Junkers JU87G. GW stuff may be expensive, but you can be pretty much guaranteed that, for instance, both halves of an airframe will be the same length.
And there won't be 1mm wide gaps to fill in the body when it's properly assembled.
And the locating holes will have been moulded as holes not just vague dimples you have to drill out before you can actually locate the pins designed for them.
And there won't be enough flash to make another smaller Stuka just from shavings.
Revell have been in this game since the late 60's I think, and GW blows them out of the water for quality and ease of use, I'm frankly quite amazed how poor the Revell kit is for a kit designed in 2010 - it's worse than the kits I built as a kid.
Good reminder that the plastic isn't always grayer on the other sprue. I've watched some reviews of some of those kits for pulp gaming and they often mention the challenge of assembly. Sounds like a manufacturer whose sales are good enough that they don't have to maintain quality.
 

MedMos

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I don't know any particular brands for model airplanes/ships/whatever, but I often look for kits when in fleemarkets or at sales. And a lot of the times they can be rather pricey, so no, absolutely not only gw charging a good amount for plastic. And they do make quality products a lot of the time.
 
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I trust GW plastics absolutely for quality control. It's the opposite for their rules, paid media, finecast, and resin.

Just a reminder that Rogue Trader, 1st edition 40k, had vehicle and creature design rules in it. Really an RPG sandbox more than a tournament ready wargame. You risked a mess of a time to play it competitively with no scenario or GM, and expectations of fairness.

So then further editions tried to make it a standalone 1v1 game: more accessible, moving away from excessive randomness at the army list level, exploitable open ended systems, and with diminished story.

But then, no edition has had balanced factions and crystal clear rules. They can't ever seem to even have codices all updated for the same edition at a time. It's kind of a four decade long constant failure, from the point of view of balance.

As a for-profit company, stuff like killer combos, magical herohammer, pay-to-win elements, and flavor of the month netlists were not a failure. But we could have had quality rules (clear, uncluttered, and fair) and still had eager customers, I would argue.

Nowadays, we're grasping at straws for any kind of official rules expansion, no matter how lightweight or superficial, or unbalanced and wonky. Yet OG Gorkamorka already had functional vehicle rules worked into a gang based campaign system.

Maybe it's time for more scenario play, narrative RPG elements, and embracing the spirit of build your own rules. Others look to rival rulesets by other wargames companies. Then there's the community projects.

But fan made and 3rd party, that's not gonna work for everyone... just like the unbalanced and constantly shifting "buy the newest hotness" tournament scene isn't really for me anymore.
 

TopsyKretts

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Maybe it's time for more scenario play, narrative RPG elements, and embracing the spirit of build your own rules. Others look to rival rulesets by other wargames companies. Then there's the community projects.
I hear some people say this. Some people are also grasping at straws for any new content. So why would any one person do both? If I wanted a wonky unbalanced rules set with vehicles, I would have made one myself back in 2018 or 2019. If balance and quality is not an issue, I don't need GW to do it for me. Only thing would be the plastic.
 

MusingWarboss

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I’ve had the impression for a while that the current design team have been trying to turn Necromunda into 40k Rogue Trader mk2. My suspicion was peaked with the reintroduction of RT statlines.

I think with all of the various additions to N17-22 they’re clearly making a ruleset that is as flexible as RT and much like it, as @Grognard Gluefingers mentions, you really need a GM to play modern Necromunda much like RT. If not a physical one then at least a “Gentlemen’s Agreement” one between players.
 

Basileus

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Even if that’s the intention of GW, I find the amount of bookkeeping and cross-referencing mind-boggling and completely inappropriate for a game to enjoy in any way. Right now, Necromunda is more like masochism than an enjoyable way to spend some free time. Except minis 🫤

P. S. …

1.) Wikipedia: "A game is a recreational activity with a set of rules."
2.) Dictionary: "Recreational: Relating to or denoting activity done for enjoyment when one is not working."

Enjoyment, not work… 😅
 
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