Necromunda The Sump: General hobby venting thread (Beware: old men shouting at clouds)

[Troubled Child]

Yeah the TV version was surprisingly good but the thing that really bothered me was that Paul was too old. I agree that the plot seemed to take a back seat to cinematography at some points in the new film, much like the directors previous outing, BR 2049 which was also disappointing.

 

[Zugg Zugg]

I know this is the necromunda sump thread but if like to sump about 40k for just a moment.

When 8th Ed first came out I loved it and got back into the hobby because of it. I even liked command points back when there was only 3 regular ones and several scenario be specific ones. It seemed like a good way to tip things in an your favour without breaking the game.

Then codexes came out and sounded warning bells. Command points was not about a reroll here or there. It became gotcha moments or the need to spend command points in order to make fluff units which should just be part of the unit list and not something I have to pay a command point for.

Now, looking at their harlequin weapons description article. The weapons have all become the same and I need to pay command points for the special part of the weapon. Especially since ad far as I know harlequins are not really in a position to command point farm. So maybe I'll only be able to pull that off a few times.

Maybe meta gamers can tell me that this is great and way better than the old way but I don't like how what seemed like a cute little side gimmick to help you in a tight spot has become the game.

Edited sidenote: I don't play harlequins but I've always wanted to. Actually I do have about 20 metal ones that I am never painted or played with.

 

[cronevald]

I know this is the necromunda sump thread but if like to sump about 40k for just a moment.

When 8th Ed first came out I loved it and got back into the hobby because of it. I even liked command points back when there was only 3 regular ones and several scenario be specific ones. It seemed like a good way to tip things in an your favour without breaking the game.

Then codexes came out and sounded warning bells. Command points was not about a reroll here or there. It became gotcha moments or the need to spend command points in order to make fluff units which should just be part of the unit list and not something I have to pay a command point for.

Now, looking at their harlequin weapons description article. The weapons have all become the same and I need to pay command points for the special part of the weapon. Especially since ad far as I know harlequins are not really in a position to command point farm. So maybe I'll only be able to pull that off a few times.

Maybe meta gamers can tell me that this is great and way better than the old way but I don't like how what seemed like a cute little side gimmick to help you in a tight spot has become the game.

Edited sidenote: I don't play harlequins but I've always wanted to. Actually I do have about 20 metal ones that I am never painted or played with.

I've not played 40k since 5th edition but I've heard similar complaints from my friends who do still play. Every time they try to get me to come back I wait because I remember how the new edition shine is fleeting and temporary.

 

[RedRowan]

I still like the old sci fi channel version myself. This latest version was very impressive visually but the pacing of the movie was terrible (Very drawn out at the beginning and rushed at the end). There was also far too much time given over to arty farty dream sequences, which seemed to be essentially the same shot of Chani over and over again. That time could have easily been given over to developing some of the other plot lines or just making the end sequence with the Fremen feel less rushed. The characterisation of Paul was good and the action sequences were excellent and I'm still looking forward to the next part despite the issues.

Finally got to watch the movie this weekend and this was very much my take on it too.

 

[almic85]

I know this is the necromunda sump thread but if like to sump about 40k for just a moment.

When 8th Ed first came out I loved it and got back into the hobby because of it. I even liked command points back when there was only 3 regular ones and several scenario be specific ones. It seemed like a good way to tip things in an your favour without breaking the game.

Then codexes came out and sounded warning bells. Command points was not about a reroll here or there. It became gotcha moments or the need to spend command points in order to make fluff units which should just be part of the unit list and not something I have to pay a command point for.

Now, looking at their harlequin weapons description article. The weapons have all become the same and I need to pay command points for the special part of the weapon. Especially since ad far as I know harlequins are not really in a position to command point farm. So maybe I'll only be able to pull that off a few times.

Maybe meta gamers can tell me that this is great and way better than the old way but I don't like how what seemed like a cute little side gimmick to help you in a tight spot has become the game.

Edited sidenote: I don't play harlequins but I've always wanted to. Actually I do have about 20 metal ones that I am never painted or played with.

You have hit the nail on the head here with the development of 8th Ed and how 9th Ed works.

The beauty of 8th Ed at the start was much like the beauty of 3rd Ed when it was released. The ruleset was streamlined and all the weird extra gotcha rules were removed or scaled right back.

Then the codex’s started to come out and all the special rules that were removed from the game (for good reason) became “stratagems” that you needed to spend Command Points on in order to have active.

So not only did you end up with a game that had all the same special rules as before (that were removed for good reason), but now they only occurred when someone invoked an obscure rule from their codex for one phase of one turn IF they still had the correct number of CPs left over from the pregame meta game of building an army for maximum CPs to use during the game.

Even better is that not only do you need the core rulebook and your codex, but you also needed another 6 campaign booms that randomly included one or two extra rules for your army in each one AND you need to also buy the yearly points errata and the yearly FAQ/updates mission packs or you can no longer play…

40k can sit on a tap and spin.

 

[Tiny]

Command points are the worst mechanic of modern 40k.... convince me I'm wrong.

Incentivising building your army to look stupid purely to farm as many command points as possible is a terrible idea. Not sure whether adding a platoon of guardsmen to every imperium army is still a thing but that trend signalled my re-exit from 40k.

 

[Gunkaiser]

Detachments cost CP now so most people stick with a Battalion or Patrol + Specialist Detachment.

 

[Heart of Storm]

Now, looking at their harlequin weapons description article. The weapons have all become the same and I need to pay command points for the special part of the weapon. Especially since ad far as I know harlequins are not really in a position to command point farm. So maybe I'll only be able to pull that off a few times.

Maybe meta gamers can tell me that this is great and way better than the old way but I don't like how what seemed like a cute little side gimmick to help you in a tight spot has become the game.

From what I can gather, GW has been reducing the number of weapon profiles in recent codexes, based on the Genestealer Cult one, acolyte hybrids had their knife attack, claw attack and standard attack consolidated into a single profile, same for aberrants, whether they have a power pick or hammer modelled, same profile.

From what I can gather its about speeding up games and reducing the amount of weapons profiles you have to roll dice for in melee

 

[Tiny]

From what I can gather, GW has been reducing the number of weapon profiles in recent codexes, based on the Genestealer Cult one, acolyte hybrids had their knife attack, claw attack and standard attack consolidated into a single profile, same for aberrants, whether they have a power pick or hammer modelled, same profile.

This is a good move. Now they just need to condense the 300 different Bolter profiles into fewer versions.

 

[Stoof]

Maybe there are a limited number of weapon profiles available in the GW pool and they've all been spent on Necromunda?

 

[NoOneII.]

Command points are the worst mechanic of modern 40k.... convince me I'm wrong.

Incentivising building your army to look stupid purely to farm as many command points as possible is a terrible idea. Not sure whether adding a platoon of guardsmen to every imperium army is still a thing but that trend signalled my re-exit from 40k.

Yeah, that sillyness is gone. Nowadays it costs you CP to build stupid, lopsided armies, and that is a good thing.

Generally I am a fan of the ressource management component the CP bring during the game. Not sure if every army should have 20 or so different strategems, as this results in a huge amount of lexicon you have to learn to play the game properly.
I'd probably like it more if there were 10 general strategems for everyone and 5 special ones per faction.

Regarding the collapsing of weapon profiles: Big fan of that. Reduces separate steps you have to go through and ultimately it's how many spacedudes you have to take away that really interests me. The Plasma gun in the squad and the grenade launcher is well enough to keep separate track of.

Disclaimer:
I haven't played one bit of 40k since 3rd (!) edition. But as it looks, I am sticking my toes into the water now, with 9th, as I like a lot of what I see in this edition. A larger contributing factor are the fantastic models of the Genestealers, tho, I must admit.

P.S., for Sump's sake: GSC are much sexier than stupid spacemarines!

 

[Tiny]

Command points solely used for army composition would be excellent. Be rid of stratagems entirely and give factions / units their special rules back.

 

[Zugg Zugg]

Detachments cost CP now so most people stick with a Battalion or Patrol + Specialist Detachment.

I don't know how I feel about that. The detachments helped me feel like I could run fluff lists. Sure I could just chuck all the detachment ideas into a battalion but then it doesn't feel the same. As an old school Ork player I want a mishmash of all the clans. Perhaps making that cost command points is reasonable as a mishmash of clans would probably be a nightmare to command

Mind you as tiny said. the command points as a list building resource management system makes a lot of sense.

Ok the simplifying weapons into one thing is a good thing. I still don't like making the special part of a weapon as a strategum though. They could have made all the weapons into one and then let you choose which effect you were taking this round of fighting.

Also:
Do harlequins have an hq yet?

 

[Zugg Zugg]

This is a good move. Now they just need to condense the 300 different Bolter profiles into fewer versions.

Remember when shootas were boltguns and sluggas were bolt pistols

 

[Gunkaiser]

Sluggas still are bolt pistols... Though I always got the impression that shootas and sluggas were just the pidgin Gothic word for the Ork-made bolt weapons.

 

[Ardavion]

Remember when shootas were boltguns and sluggas were bolt pistols

Remember when Orks didn't have Shootas and Sluggas, and just had *actual* Boltguns and Bolt Pistols...

 

[almic85]

Detachments cost CP now so most people stick with a Battalion or Patrol + Specialist Detachment.

They also introduced bonus rules for “pure” faction armies that are so good that they usually make playing “soup” armies non-competitive.

Command points solely used for army composition would be excellent. Be rid of stratagems entirely and give factions / units their special rules back.

Or they could go back to how they used to do it and just give a set of minimum and maximum percentage of points that need to be spent on each group. You know the old at least 25% on troops, max 25% on HQ, and max 50% on fast attack, heavy support or elites.

 

[Zugg Zugg]

Remember when Orks didn't have Shootas and Sluggas, and just had *actual* Boltguns and Bolt Pistols...

I thought that's what I said

 

[Zugg Zugg]

They also introduced bonus rules for “pure” faction armies that are so good that they usually make playing “soup” armies non-competitive.

I'll still make soup armies because for me miniatures has always been about roleplay. It's too expensive a hobby to pay to win if it sacrifices my enjoyment of crafting an army.

Or they could go back to how they used to do it and just give a set of minimum and maximum percentage of points that need to be spent on each group. You know the old at least 25% on troops, max 25% on HQ, and max 50% on fast attack, heavy support or elites.

That's pretty much what the battalion org chart does. Although not quite since as an ork player I can spam ten unit grots to fill up troops and then spend my points on the big stuff in elites, heavy and fast attack so that the points would probably look more like 75 to 90 percent in elites, fast and heavy. Percentages was a much better way to at least try to balance the game.

 

[Ardavion]

I thought that's what I said

I thought you were referring to 3rd (4th?) ed, when shootas and sluggas were introduced, using the same stats as boltguns and bolt pistols, but in 2nd ed shootas and sluggas simply didn't exist; the Ork codex and black book (from in the starter box) referred to boltguns and bolt pistols (for 3 points and 1 point, respectively, iirc).