Necromunda The Sump: General hobby venting thread (Beware: old men shouting at clouds)
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This would bring things full circle for me. I saw Tremors on my 16th birthday, and afterwards bought Rogue Trader and my first box of RTB01 Space Marines from a Boston comic book store.
So I saw a custom space marine chapter on YouTube and I started thinking of the idea of a chapter I had but never did anything with. Yesterday I toyed with the idea of making them a chaos faction because I didn't see them as fascists but wrote the idea off as soon as I did a tiny bit of research.
It feels like there are too many options, and that they should have simply been handled as a couple of options with the varying options being fluff only.
And everything is hellbent on being creepy and evil that the only conclusion is that the fascist imperium are the good guys, but the lore tries to push you to think otherwise. I find it really confusing. Is it good guys versus bad guys or is it everyone has reason to think they are good and the others are bad?
It feels like there are too many options, and that they should have simply been handled as a couple of options with the varying options being fluff only.
And everything is hellbent on being creepy and evil that the only conclusion is that the fascist imperium are the good guys, but the lore tries to push you to think otherwise. I find it really confusing. Is it good guys versus bad guys or is it everyone has reason to think they are good and the others are bad?
Just like real life it’s hard to say who the real bad guys are, have you heard of the Horseshoe theory? That the far left and far right are actually nearer politically than they are to the centre? And that assumes that either are bad and that the center is good…..I think it’s your second option personally, everyone thinks they are the good guys, again both in 40k and real life!
This Tremors reference gives me an idea, a big board I could build in the aftermath of a Tyranid ripperswarm attack or similar tunneling creatures. Have all sorts of jaws and claws coming out of crevices, mangled bodies in trenches and furrows, sinking buildings, slimy bio-junk over broken machinery.
Maybe a series of walkways that look hastily constructed and about to fall.
I might be out of pink insulation foam but I probably still have air-dry foam clay at least for the more sculpted parts.
Rather than Rippers a more generic lamprey worm might work better, just a worm body + teeth means I could make a bunch from scratch. If I figure out the 3D printer that could save time.
Worms of all different sizes to represent a lifecycle would make it more horrifying.
Like, you killed the big ones, but there's thousands of babies just underfoot.
Yeah... Lotta other projects going on, but this sounds like it needs to happen.
Maybe a series of walkways that look hastily constructed and about to fall.
I might be out of pink insulation foam but I probably still have air-dry foam clay at least for the more sculpted parts.
Rather than Rippers a more generic lamprey worm might work better, just a worm body + teeth means I could make a bunch from scratch. If I figure out the 3D printer that could save time.
Worms of all different sizes to represent a lifecycle would make it more horrifying.
Like, you killed the big ones, but there's thousands of babies just underfoot.
Yeah... Lotta other projects going on, but this sounds like it needs to happen.
There aren’t really good guys in the 40k universe (except Orks). Every faction just has its own agenda that they fight for and sees everyone else (and sometimes themselves) as the bad guys.
In terms of space marines basically they either support the Emperor or they don’t. If they don’t fight for the emperor then they are considered to be chaos space marines.
This leaves a little bit of interesting design space where there may be chapters that appear to be loyalist chapters that actually are not but also that there may be chapters that appear to be chaos chapters but are not either.
You can diverge the rules and the fluff of space marines quite wildly and still have it fit in with the bigger universe in a cohesive way.
@almic85 You're right. There must be some heretic Space Marine chapters, individual companies, or warbands that renounced the Imperium but don't actually worship Chaos. I think some in Huron Blackheart's crew aren't devoted cultists but more like savage mercenaries caught up in the madness or forced to go along with it. Certainly there's grounds for some good fiction with those kinds of themes.
But Marines aren't normal humans and they have been psycho-conditioned, if that conditioning breaks it almost always breaks the rest of the mind, too.
My two marine chapters happen to care the most and the least, respectively. The Space Wolves, of all the major chapters (Founding 20 at least) are said to care the most for common rabble humans and have more humanlike temperaments, being prone to joke and drink and wrestle building sized mammals and space squids. The other is Grey Knights, and I would argue they care the least, and are the most inhuman acting of all loyalists save the AdMech's creations.
But Marines aren't normal humans and they have been psycho-conditioned, if that conditioning breaks it almost always breaks the rest of the mind, too.
My two marine chapters happen to care the most and the least, respectively. The Space Wolves, of all the major chapters (Founding 20 at least) are said to care the most for common rabble humans and have more humanlike temperaments, being prone to joke and drink and wrestle building sized mammals and space squids. The other is Grey Knights, and I would argue they care the least, and are the most inhuman acting of all loyalists save the AdMech's creations.
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spafe
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From the fluff (pre primaris only) the salamanders are the most humanitarian in their outlook, viewing their role as defenders of humanity above all, while others such as dark angels view abhumans as things to be destroyed, but will otherwise do their best to protect humans. Then you get space wolves who display human traits more than the others, but actually care no more for humans than other chapters (ie. nominally protect them but will sacrifice them if required without moral issue. You then get more into the iron hands and flesh tearer ends of the spectrum of views, where humans are weak and in the way.
Thats a full gamit of views from just the loyalist. You then get renegade marines, these can be individuals, squads, companies or full chapters. These have fallen foul of imperial laws, or become disillusioned with the imperial creed. They will do what is best for... themselves, their realms (if they still hold areas), or others they owe fealty to. These have the most scope for DiY, and it is perfectly acceptable for these marines to wage war against other loyalists and still be welcome in other sectors of the imperium. Some of the chapters who sided with the renegades in the badab wars are great examples here, forced to go against the imperial forces due to oaths they had given, or initial information they recieved. Following the conflict they might serve penance before being granted full forgiveness, or just allowed on their way, exiled from that sector etc etc. and that might not mean full forgiveness, they might still be attacked on site by the loyalists chapters in the future, but the imperium as a whole doesnt view them as enemies.
Then finally you come to full blown chaos marines, these embrace the dark gods (to some extent), wish for the emperor to be cast down and the imperium shattered. They are the polar opposite to the loyalists in terms of their 'side' but equally, while more fall into the humans are weak view of the world, there is some factions that defend their human stock for reasons other than keeping their property alive. Thousand sons, some factions within word bearers and red corsairs all easily fall into these outlooks.
In terms of wider 40k factions.... all are in it for their survival, and bar very specific exceptions, all alliances between factions are temporary conveniences at best. The Tau are sometimes portrayed as 'good', but even in their earliest fluff (ie. before any major goes at grim darking them beyond their initial conception) they were sterilising factions that joined them (humans), putting controllers on others (vespid), and using others as expendable cannon fodder (kroot). They are not good, but are doing what they can to protect tau lives, and expand their own race.
The other example of 'good' is nominally the ultramarines, in that they run their 500 worlds and the quality of life there is said to be relatively high, howeever they are still by todays standards xenophobic, harsh, militarised societies that would not really pass for 'good' in a modern context. In the context of the wider 40k universe though, I'd pick there to be born over anywhere else pretty much every day of the week.
Thats a full gamit of views from just the loyalist. You then get renegade marines, these can be individuals, squads, companies or full chapters. These have fallen foul of imperial laws, or become disillusioned with the imperial creed. They will do what is best for... themselves, their realms (if they still hold areas), or others they owe fealty to. These have the most scope for DiY, and it is perfectly acceptable for these marines to wage war against other loyalists and still be welcome in other sectors of the imperium. Some of the chapters who sided with the renegades in the badab wars are great examples here, forced to go against the imperial forces due to oaths they had given, or initial information they recieved. Following the conflict they might serve penance before being granted full forgiveness, or just allowed on their way, exiled from that sector etc etc. and that might not mean full forgiveness, they might still be attacked on site by the loyalists chapters in the future, but the imperium as a whole doesnt view them as enemies.
Then finally you come to full blown chaos marines, these embrace the dark gods (to some extent), wish for the emperor to be cast down and the imperium shattered. They are the polar opposite to the loyalists in terms of their 'side' but equally, while more fall into the humans are weak view of the world, there is some factions that defend their human stock for reasons other than keeping their property alive. Thousand sons, some factions within word bearers and red corsairs all easily fall into these outlooks.
In terms of wider 40k factions.... all are in it for their survival, and bar very specific exceptions, all alliances between factions are temporary conveniences at best. The Tau are sometimes portrayed as 'good', but even in their earliest fluff (ie. before any major goes at grim darking them beyond their initial conception) they were sterilising factions that joined them (humans), putting controllers on others (vespid), and using others as expendable cannon fodder (kroot). They are not good, but are doing what they can to protect tau lives, and expand their own race.
The other example of 'good' is nominally the ultramarines, in that they run their 500 worlds and the quality of life there is said to be relatively high, howeever they are still by todays standards xenophobic, harsh, militarised societies that would not really pass for 'good' in a modern context. In the context of the wider 40k universe though, I'd pick there to be born over anywhere else pretty much every day of the week.
That's a really interesting post.
You mention about the xenophobia - that's one area I think where they really dropped the ball with the Horus Heresy series and I think miniatures released so far. In the old lore we used to have a lot more 'abhuman' regiments; beastmen, Squats were tolerated and things like that. I know we still have Ogryns (and Ratlings?) but the current lore is that if you start growing a pimple on your nose, you're a mutant and must be purged. So those non-human archetypes kind of contradictory in their existence.
I thought with the Great Crusade they had an opportunity to differentiate the expanding M29 Imperium from the later, extremely xenophobic 'purge all infidels' it would become, when it is kind of turning inward and destroying itself.
I would have loved to see Beastmen regiments fighting for the Imperium, other inhuman regiments (I know Squats are now coming back, but those too!)
Rick Priestly, who we know is a massive history buff and based the expansion of the Imperium on Roman expansion, I think would have done this had he still been writing the lore - as we know the Romans 'civilised' tribes and peoples they conquered militarily, but they then put them to work in their own empire and armies - they didn't destroy them and salt the earth, otherwise they would never have had the troops to keep on expanding and maintaining what they had taken control of. I think if he had still been about within GW we might have seen something like that, as it makes more sense (he says about a world with magicians, demons and people riding in tanks to attack with their swords!)
So, in a long rambling kind of way, I thought there was a missed opportunity there to differentiate culturally and intellectually the Imperium prior to the Heresy, and it also would have been a great way to make the armies (certainly Imperial/non-Astartes armies) from looking so similar to their 40k counterparts too.
You mention about the xenophobia - that's one area I think where they really dropped the ball with the Horus Heresy series and I think miniatures released so far. In the old lore we used to have a lot more 'abhuman' regiments; beastmen, Squats were tolerated and things like that. I know we still have Ogryns (and Ratlings?) but the current lore is that if you start growing a pimple on your nose, you're a mutant and must be purged. So those non-human archetypes kind of contradictory in their existence.
I thought with the Great Crusade they had an opportunity to differentiate the expanding M29 Imperium from the later, extremely xenophobic 'purge all infidels' it would become, when it is kind of turning inward and destroying itself.
I would have loved to see Beastmen regiments fighting for the Imperium, other inhuman regiments (I know Squats are now coming back, but those too!)
Rick Priestly, who we know is a massive history buff and based the expansion of the Imperium on Roman expansion, I think would have done this had he still been writing the lore - as we know the Romans 'civilised' tribes and peoples they conquered militarily, but they then put them to work in their own empire and armies - they didn't destroy them and salt the earth, otherwise they would never have had the troops to keep on expanding and maintaining what they had taken control of. I think if he had still been about within GW we might have seen something like that, as it makes more sense (he says about a world with magicians, demons and people riding in tanks to attack with their swords!)
So, in a long rambling kind of way, I thought there was a missed opportunity there to differentiate culturally and intellectually the Imperium prior to the Heresy, and it also would have been a great way to make the armies (certainly Imperial/non-Astartes armies) from looking so similar to their 40k counterparts too.
Mutants are kind of weird... It's very much a depending on the writer sort of thing but they often have a sort of legal status within the Imperium that makes them functionally slaves but with some autonomy (Gilded Age laborer/Mine Wars company indebted).
Psykers on the other hand... The Inquisition is probably right on that one.
Psykers on the other hand... The Inquisition is probably right on that one.
Mutants and abhumans is a grey area. If one person in a group is different enough, they're a mutant - spark up the flamers etc etc. If after being isolated from the imperium for several thousand years the entire population is like that, then they're Abhumans. If the abhuman has useful traits - very big & strong (ogryns), small, sneaky and excellent shots (ratlings) or great miners and manufacturers (squats) then great. Who knows how many other branches of Abhuman there were which didn't have a marketable trait and so were eradicated?
I don't really know how beastmen fit into all of this as they don't really work in an evolutionary way. I'm not sure they're really "abhumans" as it seems they didn't evolve from humans. I don't know much about their fluff.
I don't really know how beastmen fit into all of this as they don't really work in an evolutionary way. I'm not sure they're really "abhumans" as it seems they didn't evolve from humans. I don't know much about their fluff.
spafe
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Mutants are still around, and acceptable. It depends on the classification of the mutation though. Dave, born with his purple eyes and skin condition that 90% of the population have that mean they are slightly radiation resistant, probably classed as stable by the magos biologis, and set to work the same as any other imperial servant. Colin and Neil, who until last tuesday was just Colin with a slight mole on his neck when suddenly head No. 2 appeared and become Neil, probably won't pass muster...
Abhuman regiments existed in 6mm Epic. Including Beastmen! They're on the base sprue in fact.
Although I have many beastmen and other abhumans in my comprehensive Lost and The Damned Army / Traitor guard army, It would be funny to field an all abhuman medley that was 100% loyalist and not all spiky and gross.
The back story of that particular army is gathering all the outcasts and rejects into a fighting force, leaning hard into the politics and realistic situation what would really generate rebellion. Many of my soldiers are exploited workers, beggars and scavengers, or were hunted and abused just for simple mutations or minor crimes and heresies. Basically the dark side of the Imperium come to haunt them. I'm writing some backstory now.
Although I have many beastmen and other abhumans in my comprehensive Lost and The Damned Army / Traitor guard army, It would be funny to field an all abhuman medley that was 100% loyalist and not all spiky and gross.
The back story of that particular army is gathering all the outcasts and rejects into a fighting force, leaning hard into the politics and realistic situation what would really generate rebellion. Many of my soldiers are exploited workers, beggars and scavengers, or were hunted and abused just for simple mutations or minor crimes and heresies. Basically the dark side of the Imperium come to haunt them. I'm writing some backstory now.
spafe
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My renegade and heretics list was the same idea, it had a lot of mutated downtrodden masses (old school scavies, darkeldar wracks, orks, and various others base models), some 'regular' pdf forces (using stealer cult models as a base), and a hardened elite heavy infantry force (using the old metal storm troopers who looked like proper special forces). the idea was a rebel warlord who was against the imperial tithe but wasnt actually in line with chaos.
14th storm brigade. Sadly the army got invalidated in the move from 7th to 8th (when gw changed all the stat lines and brought out primaris), so have been used as an ad hoc guard army in small games, and for my helot gang in necromunda
Don’t forget the Soul Drinkers marines from the book series! Loyal marines twisted by exposure to chaos who are attacked on sight for being chaos worshippers, but who are not.
Salamanders actually live among the populace on their homeworld.
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Salamanders
"On the Anvil of War are the strong tempered and the weak made to perish, thus are men's souls tested as metal in the forge's fire." —The Primarch Vulkan The Salamanders are one of the Loyalist First Founding Chapters of the Space Marines. They originally served as the Imperium's XVIIIth Space...
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spafe
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admittedly been a while since I read their books, but I thought they made a pact/were decieved by a demon, their chapter master embraced chaos at some point and became a spider legged monster, and they murdered their own chaplains? Or am I thinking of another chapter?
I avoided them as an example as the books were controversial from what I remember and also I thought tracked a chapter in their fall, from loyal, to renegade, to chaos.
@spafe yeah, that’s the group. Although if I remember right, mr. Spiderlegs was a librarian? I think they made a pact, then rejected it to return to the Emperor, but the damage had already been done. I don’t remember them killing off the chaplains… I thought there was someone who performed chaplain duties…. But it’s been ages since I read the series too.
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