Necromunda The Sump: General hobby venting thread (Beware: old men shouting at clouds)

[Lord_Ikka]

And yet another blatant rip-off by GW on WarCom today.

'Stormbringer' magazine.

Moorcock's estate should send a C&D along with Frazetta's.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Sump programming.

Stormbringer has been used by multiple other entities- Deep Purple had an album, Whitesnake had a song, Transformers had a Stormbringer mini-series, there was an old video game called Stormbringer in the Magic Knight series. Unless GW is specifically talking about a sword, there is nothing to connect the two beyond it is two words brought together. Is it a possible reference? Sure, it could be, but I doubt any of the GW marketing team that probably cooked up the name has even heard of the Elric series or knows anything about the influences that Moorcock had on Warhammer (or sci-fi/fantasy in general for that matter). Considering that the main faction that is featured in the magazine will be the Stormcast Eternals, calling it Stormbringer is fairly on the nose and easily could be attributed to that, rather than any nefarious means.

Marketing pleb- "Well, we called the last one Imperium because it had Space Marines in the first issues and this one has Stormcast. What about Stormbringer?"
Marketing boss- "Sure, whatever. Do some research to make sure that there hasn't been any other magazine with that name."
Marketing pleb, after a quick google- "Nope, no magazine."
Marketing boss- "Done."

It's also been known for quite a while, well over a year, so I'm not sure why there is any issue now...

 

[Mr. M]

I think @Greyhart 's sumping has more to do with the fact that GW aggressively polices its IP, but then has a couple of glaring recent examples where it is playing "fast and loose" with the IP of others, than the technical merits of whether a copyright claim by the Moorcock estate could be sustained. I think the Frazetta ripoff (or, "homage" as I'm sure GW's lawyers would claim) is the more egregious example.

 

[Gunkaiser]

Not saying it's necessarily the same thing but I recall a very similar conversion for the Nurgle warband in the old Path to Glory booklet circa 7th edition WHFB (or possibly in one of the WD articles).

 

[Greyhart]

Sorry, been busy moving.

@Mr. M that was my point exactly. GW has a "Do as I say, not as I do" attitude which just gets me sumpy at times..

 

[Lord_Ikka]

Fair enough. I think the Chapterhouse thing really messed them up as far as IP goes- you really see them start to change things towards IP-protected names after that. It has continued pretty much since then, especially the year or so before Warhammer TV came out when they went after all the YT creators.

 

[JawRippa]

Alright sumpers, listen up. You've been angry, you've been mad and I've decided to try and do something about it.
I've been working on the overhauled ruleset for the modern Necromunda which I've called the 'Gang Showdown'. With it I'm trying to improve the game flow, introduce some quality of life improvements, and, well, make the rules more sane and fun. It introduces a lot of radical changes, so your sumpy criticism would go a long way!

Gang_Showdown_Emblem.png

• JawRippa
• Oct 29, 2023

GS_Example.png

• JawRippa
• Oct 29, 2023

 

[zifilis]

The recent release of Van Saar has got me thinking about how Games Workshop (GW) and Forge World handle their game development. The introduction of new grav-cutter rules appears to be an attempt to fix a fundamental design issue, but it feels more like a band-aid on a flawed system. While the changes to Neotek's rules do help improve game balance, adding a second variant of the grav-cutter seems like a questionable design decision.

I've been part of the Necromunda community since 2018, and I've grown frustrated with the constant need to consult external sources and engage in house rule debates. It's become a chore to find a mission that's balanced or to determine which tactics should be banned – these decisions often require online research. Even though we have new 2023 rulebook, the missions are scattered across older books, leading to inconsistencies. The relatively small Necromunda community sometimes means I have to play with people I don't particularly like, which results in never-ending disputes over conflicting rules and details.

At this point, I find myself in a situation where, like the previous commenter, I'm constantly thinking about rewriting the rules from scratch. And look how many of theses fan-made rule compilations and house rules are around already. Crafting these rules is a formidable task, given the complexity of Necromunda's rule system, encompassing a myriad of traits, skills, missions, and conditions. The game appears to be burdened with an abundance of rules that don't seem adequately tested.

I'm currently involved in what could be my final campaign and am planning to take a break from Necromunda. I hold out hope that the game can thrive with community support and eventually find a more coherent design vision.

 

[TopsyKretts]

That's a nice summary of 6 years worth of complaints

 

[ntw3001]

Well there are plenty of other sci-fi skirmish options around, including the previous edition of Necromunda (on this site, free!). Getting your group to play is another thing, but chances are other people are having the same experience. The group would probably end up splitting, as some folks will never countenance the idea of anything besides the latest iteration on whatever GW releases, but... hopefully those guys are the ones you don't like I guess

 

[JawRippa]

Well there are plenty of other sci-fi skirmish options around, including the previous edition of Necromunda (on this site, free!). Getting your group to play is another thing, but chances are other people are having the same experience. The group would probably end up splitting, as some folks will never countenance the idea of anything besides the latest iteration on whatever GW releases, but... hopefully those guys are the ones you don't like I guess

At this point I'd honestly would not enjoy playing a I-go-you-go system. Besides, while the ruleset was tighter, old Necromunda is not a perfect game; there are a lot of things the 2nd edition is superior, for example Bottling is a lot more gradual rather than 'oops, failed one roll, guess its over'. I'll repeat myself from the early days of YCE creation attempt, Numunda has a skeleton of a good game, just too much bloat in the wrong places.

 

[Ardavion]

At this point I'd honestly would not enjoy playing a I-go-you-go system. Besides, while the ruleset was tighter, old Necromunda is not a perfect game; there are a lot of things the 2nd edition is superior, for example Bottling is a lot more gradual rather than 'oops, failed one roll, guess its over'. I'll repeat myself from the early days of YCE creation attempt, Numunda has a skeleton of a good game, just too much bloat in the wrong places.

If you make a list of what is undesirable about NCE, you'd likely have an easier time retrofitting that than N##.

For example, the bottle roll is one of the easier new things to port over. Just do a leadership test (in place of whichever stat is used in N##) for each model once you've failed the overall bottle check to see who fails and actually bottles. Lots of dice rolls, and you could be dragging the game out when a quick finish to sort out your post-game rolls would be preferable, but then you'd be doing the same in N## as well.

Unpopular opinion; alternating activation is still I-go-U-go, just not necessarily in the right order.

 

[MusingWarboss]

Unpopular opinion; alternating activation is still I-go-U-go, just not necessarily in the right order.

Alternating activation is pretty similar to I go U go, it’s just one model at a time rather than all of them. You’d have to have a completely different system that’d be completely random as to who can activate next to not be a variety of I go U go.

Think Bolt Action has a system like that. The BoltYaks can yay or nay that.

 

[Ardavion]

Alternating activation is pretty similar to I go U go, it’s just one model at a time rather than all of them. You’d have to have a completely different system that’d be completely random as to who can activate next to not be a variety of I go U go.

Think Bolt Action has a system like that. The BoltYaks can yay or nay that.

As far as I recall, BA uses a bag of dice, with each die corresponding to a squad or equivalent - so smaller units or cheaper units increases the chance one of your dice gets drawn as you field more at the expense of more powerful units.

 

[ntw3001]

I didn't have a problem with IgoUgo in N95. I would say it was was declared unfashionable because of 40k, where you could spend twenty minutes waiting and removing models from the table before returning to move whatever was left. That just wasn't an issue in Necromunda, where turns were quicker and damage potential was lower. In my view it's more or less a wash; the universal distaste for it seems like Internet Wisdom to me.

It's also easy to port in alternating activations to that ruleset, although because N16's implementation of the idea is an obvious first-draft version it just further exacerbates the game's inherent skew towards large gangs. Scavvies can spend 20c on 2d6 zombies and turn it into 'IgoUgo, but I get to step in if I want'. Wouldn't be cheesing the rules, it's just what zombies are for. They're bodies, and N16 heavily rewards bodies.

For bottling, to each their own. Maybe a sudden 'you lose' roll is too abrupt, although I was always happy to hit a clear finish point. The N16 method felt like dragging it out, and it still left it unclear who actually won. But still, it's pretty easy to houserule. And having individual rolls for each fighter would make Ld a more useful stat as well.

 

[Luke82]

Alternating activation is pretty similar to I go U go, it’s just one model at a time rather than all of them. You’d have to have a completely different system that’d be completely random as to who can activate next to not be a variety of I go U go.

Think Bolt Action has a system like that. The BoltYaks can yay or nay that.

Yep random draw for order dice creates a random activation order… overall I prefer it as you have to react on the fly all the time and can’t rely on things going your way.

My pals and I have used it for everything, bolt action, warlords of erehwon, our 40K homebrew, necro 95, mordheim… we actually ended up taking it out of necro and mordheim as it really wasn’t needed as much as the larger games in our opinion, the turns move quickly enough and there just isn’t the overwhelming fire power to try and mitigate.

We find that after a stretch of playing order dice games a switch to IGOUGO is a nice change, and vice versa. I don’t think one system or the over is inherently better, lazy game design in current games encourages the worst pitfalls of IGOUGO and no doubt would in alt activations also.

 

[Tiny]

IMO IGoUGo is fine for small model count games like Necromunda where a turn takes at most 5-10 mins. It makes a game a lot faster to play vs taking turns to activate a single miniature. I like the random activation for Bolt Action though. I think that would work well for larger games like 40k.

 

[Troubled Child]

I dislike the implementation of AA in Numunda, I think it would be better if it was a single action per activation but a lot of that has to do with overwatch being a skill now.

 

[Tiny]

GW Trying their hardest to stop people buying from their website. They now have a queueing system instead of just getting better servers. /facepalm.

 

[Mr. M]

Nothing like investing in technology... to create the digital version of standing in an endless line at the post office or DMV! Whoever had the bright idea of telling people "the queue is paused" deserves to spend the rest of his life sitting in gridlock traffic.

 

[Ardavion]

GW Trying their hardest to stop people buying from their website. They now have a queueing system instead of just getting better servers. /facepalm.

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Got to wonder if they've scaled their servers down since they now only have the one domain to manage, which would be a typical management decision.

So far thoroughly unimpressed by the new store design. Doesn't feel like an improvement in any way, and in many ways is a step backward.