Necromunda The Sump: General hobby venting thread (Beware: old men shouting at clouds)

Ah yes, The Old World. Now, a new generation of war gamers can experience the boring, stale, “I go you go” experience of playing warhammer fantasy.

So that was my grognard response. My adult response to all this is really nostalgic grief. My years playing WFB will always be near to my heart; When I “graduated” from 40k to Fantasy I joined the ranks of the older guys that played “real” warhammer. Literally the best days of my teenage life. Those days are gone. WFB is gone. Deceased. I and my friends have moved on and nothing will bring it back. Our local game store is now a gym. And that, is a lesson that belongs to growing up; There is value in the acceptance of loss. Loss of friends, loved ones, possessions, youth and warhammer.
 
There never has been any reason why they couldn’t reissue 8th rules (or any of them) other than the fact the prices got so high that it was costing a fortune to get 20 models that didn’t rank up well.

That would still be an issue with a re-release.

Now it would be hoped that the game designers would take that issue into account (as it killed original Warhammer) when designing the new rules.

People still like R&F fantasy, they just have to not stuff it up.

Ok, it will have 16 book required to play because that’s normal for GW these days.
 
prices got so high that it was costing a fortune to get 20 models that didn’t rank up well.

That would still be an issue with a re-release.

I gather they've upped the base sizes, so they have fixed one issue...

I liked plenty of these models back in the day. The men at arms are - or were - great for various conversions. But I think most of these kits look dated now and there are better alternatives out there, like Frostgrave, Oathmark, Fireforge, etc.
 
I'm not going to play the old world, but I think I might well buy some knights just because I want to paint some.

So a partial win for GW?

Reading the special rules and bumf on WC just makes me think they're introducing far too much special rules nonsense - falling into the trap of making AoS with historical models.


I won't play it either, I've never been able to get head around rank and flank games. I just want the core troops (spears, gunners and greatswords), that GW squatted recently, to complete my 1500pt Empire army. I'd pull the pin on Highlands Miniatures alternatives, but I really do want official GW models...
 
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Depending on the price, I may pick up a box or two of Old World infantry for conversion purposes, just like I'll probably get a box of Cities of Sigmar infantry guys. Definitely not going to play the game though, I have enough on my plate without another large-formation game.
 
I would like another box of men-at-arms, to finish the plodding, round-helmeted Khorne warband I started all those years ago. But at modern prices, doubled for Japan, multiplied by the weak yen, I uh don't think so.

I do wonder what The Big Plan is with this game. I don't have much respect for GW's game-writing prowess, but their money-guessers are usually pretty solid. So I assume they're aware that the old community will have moved on, Oldhammer is big enough that the nostalgia gap is already filled, there's more competition (including from GW's own other products), and the issues with the original game are going to be right there still. Aside from larger bases making units easier to rank up, what are they planning that's going to yield a better result? New players aren't going to buy in for the same reasons they didn't before. Older players have a broader view of the hobby, probably won't have any interest in GW's rules, and are much more likely to be buying from other manufacturers or printing. The target audience for this game seems to already be better served than GW is able to manage.

Maybe it's just some internal nostalgia fiend talking them into poor money-guessing, but I don't see how it fits with GW's business model to build something that seems exclusively to cater to a crowd that has already moved into the wider TTG hobby space.
 
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. Aside from larger bases making units easier to rank up, what are they planning that's going to yield a better result? New players aren't going to buy in for the same reasons they didn't before. Older players have a broader view of the hobby, probably won't have any interest in GW's rules, and are much more likely to be buying from other manufacturers or printing. The target audience for this game seems to already be better served than GW is able to manage.

I don’t know how things are in Japan, but where I am there are a few guys that are all, „Wow! I can’t wait to get my hands on some of those new Tomb Kings of Khemri models!“ it’s hard to believe that WFB got squatted almost ten years ago (!) and I guess there are plenty of new players who have yet to be entranced by square bases.
 
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Would love to get invested in Old World, history just tells me that I should know better.

Much like HH, the story is already set in stone. Unless they plan on shitting the bed even harder, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt on this one. Unlike HH, there's no onus on them to not f**k it up to not kill a good book line.

It's getting resin releases. They've shown they can do plastic for everything. I don't care if I can buy from FW on the site now, GW resin sucks fat Wolfman nards. I don't want it.

And my personal favorite "Certain factions are not involved in the narrative of the Old World and will receive a Rules PDF on release". The last 3 editions of 40k did that PDF shit. It's not bad. It's worse than bad. It's a weak excuse to shill books evert few months. The content release cycle might look good on paper, but it kills the balance and game momentum. I can't remember the last time I was interested in playing 40k.
 
So looking at the prices for the release of the Old World (£12 per Grail Knight in metal with 3 in a pack, £23 for the characters redone in resin, £47.50 for 20 Tomb Guard in plastic) and I'm questioning if I'll bother even once my beloved High Elves return. Mostly though I'm left screaming that if you are going to charge £18 for a poster at least have the common decency to put it in a fucking tube, you savages!
 
So looking at the prices for the release of the Old World (£12 per Grail Knight in metal with 3 in a pack, £23 for the characters redone in resin, £47.50 for 20 Tomb Guard in plastic) and I'm questioning if I'll bother even once my beloved High Elves return. Mostly though I'm left screaming that if you are going to charge £18 for a poster at least have the common decency to put it in a fucking tube, you savages!
As it is in 40k, so it shall be in Fantasy. Imperial Knights got bumped to $170USD because other "big" kits were that much. Other infantry boxes are $65, might as well charge that for the new skeletons! Clown shit, always has been
 
A sober review of the new Necromunda book:
Haven't paid much attention to Necromunda reviews lately, so was happy to see actual gamers who know the strength and weaknesses of the game share their thoughts.
They do some good content on that channel, they definitely deserve some subs!
 
No comment on the product itself, but that article does contain a specific bugbear of mine.

clunky throwbacks like To-Hit and To-Wound charts.

It's a common complaint by people who learned with the newer, less readable, more limiting, bad stat blocks GW currently uses. Oh no it's in a chart, whatever shall we do! Well, maybe look at the chart and use your mind to observe that it's displaying a really easy formula. In Blood Bowl you get one block dice for equal strength, two for different strength, three for more than double, with the higher strength choosing which result to use. Pretty easy to follow. Harder than anything in Warhammer or Oldcromunda, but still not hard. Good thing they never drew up a chart to show that, it'd sudenly be a real brainteaser. Guys! The formula at work here is not that arcane. You don't actually need to reference to the chart every time someone makes a block.

Never mind that the current Necromunda to-wound system is more complex than the old system; they wrote it up on a chart, that means it's hard! Tell you what's hard: they made the system more complex and then didnt put it on a chart, and apparently everyone's completely tricked by that. Just fodder for anyone already motivated to offer up negativity for clicks. Any of the mad-cus-bad Blood Bowl haters who occasionally pop up would love to have a  chart to point to, but hiding the maths in a verbal description is enough to completely conceal it. They don't have the idea of being angry about doing maths because they don't know it's maths unless the book explicitly labels it.

Sorry to the newer players, but stat blocks were better before, they were easier to read and remember, the design space was wider (swapping stats around wasn't common but it came up occasionally with psychic powers in Necromunds and Inquisitor, and more significantly with Break Tackle in Blood Bowl), and the maths was easier too. People who think 'they wrote a chart' is somehow symbolic of a real issue just aren't familiar with the systems they're attempting to discuss.

I haven't played 40k since 3rd edition, and looking at 10th I've noticed that the units have different movement values. They don't all move 6" and assault 6"! What a failure of rules writing, this must be the most complex thing in the world. Nobody could possibly manage all those numbers!
 
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To be honest, there were what, 8 editions before fantasy was killed? There will be always some people who will be displeased with the rules no matter what GW does. What I`ve seen so far from the battle report and warcom articles, there is nothing ground breaking in there, neither super terrible nor exceptionally great.

IMHO the real killer is once again, the price. It feels like GW looked at those ebay scalper prices of few hundred $/euro (at this point it`s really whatever, pick your favourite currency) per box and went "don`t mind if I do". But then again, people over at fb groups are willing to pitchfork anyone who even remotely moans at the price of those re-realeased old kits, so I can only guess that GW outdid themselves again and there are plenty of folk who are willing to pay that much and be happy with it, so what do I know.
 
@DamianK I fully agree that the price (for mostly decades old sprues, no less) is a killer. On top of that, in whfb you got the rules and an armybook, and that was all you needed. Now you need, as I understand it, at least another supplement on top of that, to access everything in your army. Is anyone else getting real sick of this dlc-like approach to everything?
 
IMHO the real killer is once again, the price. It feels like GW looked at those ebay scalper prices of few hundred $/euro (at this point it`s really whatever, pick your favourite currency) per box and went "don`t mind if I do".
That’s pretty much what killed original Warhammer. The prices got so high that it was ridiculous to build up a useful unit and that meant that it became pay to win.

Remember terms like “Goldswords” which came about because they ramped up prices.

It seems they have learned no lessons from that and by the latter bit of your text, neither have the morons on Facebook.

At this point GW should just make them build an army one model at a time (£23 each). I doubt they’d complain.
 
At this point GW should just make them build an army one model at a time (£23 each). I doubt they’d complain.


And therein lies the problem. There seems to be a core of very affluent customers who think nothing of paying stupid money, and GW know this. And so the rest of are steadily being pushed out of the hobby.