Necromunda The Sump: General hobby venting thread (Beware: old men shouting at clouds)

[Aulenback]

Worth noting the slow shift in the specific production company as well [Marauder / Citadel / GW] - time was the sculptor's name was on every blister pack, and many of us sought out specific sculptors whose work we liked to paint and play with. That shift away from the artist toward anonymity may play into how the audience - US - look at the art of the sculpts.

 

[MedMos]

If I was buying an original sculpt, I'd care who made it and the intent behind it. When I'm buying gaming pieces, I'll buy whatever appeals to my fantasy the most (without breaking the bank...). I couldn't care less who sculpted it.
About John Blanche, I really didn't like the artwork in the Vampire Counts armybooks, back from WHFB. But I do like his Vostroyan Firstborn art. Maybe he grew on me... Maybe his style just resonates better in my vision of the 40k universe.

 

[Tiny]

I tend to see miniatures more as raw materials for my own art than as art pieces in themselves. They are no more a piece of art to me than a model aeroplane kit or a bag of seashells.

 

[Ben_S]

I find Blanche hit or miss. I appreciate his grimdark world-building vision, but not always the execution.

Mark Gibbons was always my favourite GW artist.

 

[Lord_Ikka]

Blanche's art has always been a touchstone for me- a time capsule of ideas and aesthetics that defined the real start of my personal hobby. I'm also a huge Inquisition fan, so his sketches and starter work have really inspired me over time.

Definitely not for everyone though- the limited palette and desaturation can be boring to some and the proportions of his characters are deliberately odd.

 

[Petitioner's City]

Blanche's art has always been a touchstone for me- a time capsule of ideas and aesthetics that defined the real start of my personal hobby. I'm also a huge Inquisition fan, so his sketches and starter work have really inspired me over time.

Definitely not for everyone though- the limited palette and desaturation can be boring to some and the proportions of his characters are deliberately odd.

I really recommend John Wombat's official biography of Blanche, then, Lord Ikka - really fascinating portrait of the man, his relationships, his collaborators, his motorbike, his cats and, yes, his art. Its not an art history or anything serious, not a walled pretentious or critical lingo doc - more just time spent in his head and his world.

 

[Spenetrator]

One of my favourites sculptors - Kev White - formerly of Hasslefree moved to forge world a while back, I miss his sculpts, though the Narker could have been one of his!

 

[katfezza]

Yeah, it definitely gives off Kev vibes.

 

[MusingWarboss]

Anyone else finding it difficult to care about the new Necromunda Forgeworld releases at all?

+++Ranty Moan Incoming+++

It’s not so much the *big* releases, such as a new boxset or gang but more all the endless ForgeWorld characters that, while crisply sculpted for the most part, I just don’t see the point in many of these at all.
Quite a few seem to exist just for the sake of it with no genuine purpose whatsoever, other than as book filler which then gets realised as a bit of art then a model, sometimes years later.

We all buy models and stuff that never gets used - that’s just a given in this hobby but at least they have a pretence of being used eventually in some grandiose project we dreamt up while mildly daydreaming one day - however it seems like GW have found a way to charge us £35 a model for essentially an NPC.

Endless NPCs that will probably never see much game use due to odd hiring restrictions or bizarre points pricing or both.
“House rules” or “Outcast Gang” should not be the prerequisite to get a market trader on the table, nor a doctor, a man who shouts propaganda or a toilet cleaner. I don’t want to have to mess about with rolling dice to get an agreement with the Guild of Nosepickers just so I can put three interesting models on the table. That seems like the sort of thing the Games Master (sorry, Arbitrator) should be managing on the players behalf (as it most likely would be in a standard pen+paper RPG). They’re not my gang, they’re NPCs that have been elevated to player control.

I just can’t justify spending Forgeworld prices on these models that will do absolutely nothing; not because of my laziness at getting them assembled and painted (which happens) but because of intentional in-game design.
If you can’t utilise them easily by just adding them in, then they’re essentially making humanoid scenery in expensive resin and charging hero prices for them!

You could’ve converted or brought alternatives to these and probably (should) have.
Plus I often find the modern Forgeworld sculpts a little… soulless… these days. I know their sculptors are talented but it seems like they’re working to an in-house style guide. Individual personality is verboten. That’s the reason the classic metals still hold up though - sculpts that have that individual style to them (even if you think they’re derpy).

I’ve said in the past I’d love to get a boxed set of civilians for the Underhive, which is essentially these, just at a lower price point and in plastic - which would be the perfect way of releasing them - they still have various random rules but they come in a bunch of 10 for a gang box price - literally make them playable scenery. Plus if done right, like the scum set or Frostgrave Wizards, it would make them immensely convertible for all manner of projects.
Or… better still, lean into the roleplay game NPC-ness of them all and release them as NPCs for Necromunda campaigns.

I see a lot of enthusiasm online - so hype is there for them - but for me it’s increasingly a no.
Many are nice but you should be getting these as a 3D print for somewhere between £5-£15 per model. Heck I can get traditional resin cast and metals from other companies for models in that price range and they’ve usually got better QC too!!
If your argument is “they’re not as good” then you need to look around more (there’s plenty that are) and you’re also acknowledging sculptor style is a factor in model purchase (which it is).

You want a boatman? For this one game? That’s an NPC. Just use an appropriate model for it and if you are getting a specific one for the campaign you’d probably want a kitbash or a low cost representation. Not a £30-£50 dropped cost for it to sit idle for the next 15 years.

Replace boatman with slopper, rogue doc, explosive expert, various traders, informants, lunatics, trade delegation, obscure noble, animal handler, fish tickler, Escher hairdresser, ogryn stripper etc.

The vast majority of those sound like fun one-off kitbash opportunities (and some are - if you know you know) and I’ve seen some cracking models here in the various competitions that are leagues ahead of the “official” ForgeWorld models in terms of style, personality and fun.

+++Rant Finished+++

 

[Narflung]

I feel very conflicted about the current incarnation of Necromunda. I was wary but hopeful of the initial release, but the change in tech level really turned me away. On the other hand I do quite like the expansion of the story (Secundus in particular) and the inclusion of more hired guns and as you put it, NPCs.

Fleshing out the potential gameplay possibilities is a great thing but I think you're dead right about the prices v utility. I could see a close knit gaming group chipping in to buy them for their campaign manager, but I can't see the need for them to be purchased all that broadly.

 

[Trafalgar Law]

I find everything games workshop does to be a bit soulless these days. I often think it's the official paintjobs as they can look a lot better when you see someone else's effort on Reddit or here (there's no saving some things though, yes I'm looking at you inquisitor Coteaz).

As for derpy old metals, who doesn't want a Night Gobbo giving the universe the finger?

 

[MusingWarboss]

On the other hand I do quite like the expansion of the story (Secundus in particular) and the inclusion of more hired guns and as you put it, NPCs.

There’s nothing wrong with NPCs in the game system, it’s just this awful implementation of them. Its really a problem with the design team not hammering down whether they want Necromunda to be a gang fight wargame, a Role playing game or a money generating collectable system that just happens to be playable (like a lot of CCGS).

At present (forgive me of I get it a bit wrong as it’s been a while since I bothered with this aspect of the system) but if you went out and brought a Slopper because you thought it was a cool model (valid reason) you brought it home and assembled and painted it only to find, you can’t just include it in your gang.

You have to have enough reputation, can afford it AND be playing one of the very few scenarios where he’s actually allowed to appear on the table. Then you have to hope you keep to those conditions and he doesn’t get injured else he’ll walk and you still can’t use him.

So you drop a lot of cash, time and effort and he’s just sat there.

It seems like in a discussion the design team put in a few NPC like characters to pad out the world because that sort of thing has been popular in video games for decades, then forgot to actually implement them in the manner that they usually appear in those games. Here they just become extremely temperamental henchmen.

I could see a close knit gaming group chipping in to buy them for their campaign manager,

Yes, that’s kinda what I mean. If you were playing D&D or whatever, I’d expect the GM to be supplying any characters, monster etc that we meet. Players would supply their character and possibly any other members of a party if they’re wanted, too.

You have that discussion, like:

Player: “if we’re heading out into the Ash Wastes, I’d like to hire a cook to go with us”

Then the DM would work that out for you.

DM: “roll two D6, black tens , yellow units… ok, you rolled 32, you can find a cook but he’s not brilliant, Last Expedition he went on the gang ended up eating their pets… but on the plus he is cheap? Do you want to hire him?… yes… ok, *puts down model*, this is your cook Bigby”

 

[JawRippa]

Hangerons are hands down one of the worst design choices gameplay-wise. A player is not motivated to paint a model which is best to be kept off the table.
If it does find its way on the table, for most hangerons it is the best to take cover and hope to wait it out in a safe spot. Very boring, although true to the support, non-combat characters.

Even from a design standpoint hangerons do not really offer anything unique - they are essentially a territory effect, but with a risk of losing it in some scenarios. They also compete with brutes in terms of spots due to how reputation works (another clearly underbaked concept).
James Hewitt layed down some concept ideas and GW decided to cash out on them without putting even a hint of thought into how they are supposed to work in game. Something like this should have been a purely narrative thing - a non-model rule (with an option to include a kitbashed model in a narrative scenario, like an ammo jack target practice, where gangs compete in a non-combat manner). But it brings no money.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Yes this mirrors how I feel too. If I were to buy into FW minis (which I did 7 years ago, my only motivation would be to collect them. If you actually get to play with them, you need 1, max 2. GW/FW made how many now? To be fair, if you buy any random hangers-on, you would get to buy them immediately for a fresh gang (you start with 1 rep so can always include 1) and most are fairly cheap. But they sure won't get a lot of play time. And even if you do get some play time, how relevant are they compared to the power levels of the gangs? Then there's the balance issue, where some have a las pistol and another a boltgun (and the whole fighter may as well cost less than the single boltgun itself). They got a very simple effect like JawRippa say, so you effectively got a miniature that represents a territory boon.

GW/FW must spend a lot of energy on these? They never stop making them. They are all unique and can't imagine they sell in high quantities? Is it worthwile? All this goes into making a lot of unique, highly specialized niche miniatures. If you pay up, you get something few others have. At the same time the majority of the main gangs are all the same models from the same sprue? Sure there were some FW resin champs, but how many gangs got those?

Lastly, I don't see these minis add a lot of value to the table. Generic, simple chaff. I'd much rather get some cool special rules and skills when paying for expensive models.

 

[cronevald]

James Hewitt layed down some concept ideas and GW decided to cash out on them without putting even a hint of thought into how they are supposed to work in game.

Speaking of James, my wife gave me the Fallout Factions starter set for my birthday and I am very impressed so far. I haven't played it yet (first game later this week) but it seems very polished and really shows what the same designer can do with ample playtest and development time. From my readthrough so far it feels like an extension of his Necromunda work but very tailored to the Fallout setting and feel.

 

[Stoof]

Are hangers on not often used as trial pieces for new sculptors? They're shown the art or description and have to bring it to life. That's why they sometimes appear years after their book info, and why there are so many of them.

That's a fairly low-risk thing for GW - if the model isn't very good, then they aren't essential anyway and there's no requirement to actually make it. But if they are good then they can make some money from them (let's be honest, they'll try that with the poor ones too).

Most of them are so niche there's not much point actually owning a model for them, and even then my grognard mind screams "you should be kitbashing that!"

I can see the appeal of buying the cooler ones to use in your gangs as regular fighters and just ignoring their rules, but 1) they're extremely expensive so you need to really want them and 2) they're often so weirdly armed they don't represent a build you'd want to take - it would feel really odd taking the very ornate and fancy model as a juve because it's inexplicably armed with just a stub gun and knife.

 

[JawRippa]

I've tried to rework Hangerons for Gang Showdown houseruleset, however I quickly realised that it is a very hard task and dropped them entirely.
- Outside of battle they function like a territory boon, so they do not bring anything unique to the game
- The fact that they have model kits means that there has to be a way to deploy them on the battlefield on purpose, but how do you make it beneficial to players to consider having a hangeron model at the ready?
- How do you make hangerons useful on the battlefield to make them worth bringing out? Even if we are talking about limited number of 'basic' hangerons and try to make those somewhat useful, there are some weird ones like a slopper or a gang lookout, which are clearly not combat-oriented and make no sense at the open engagement.

 

[spafe]

tbh, its the price tag that rules them out for me. They are cool, I'd happily pick up a few of them for being cool, but that price tag is just a no.

The rules... eh, play a scenario that uses them (modified if needed). There is the raid mission that has a corrupt enforcer, swap that out for an ammo jack? You cant tell me amongst the hundreds of scenarios there isnt an assassinate mission? use the public speaker as the target.

I've long ago learnt that if you want to play in a vaguely balanced way, you dont want all this crap, you want a slim lined system, basic gangs only, no extra alliances etc, limit the crazy alien tech. If you want a random fun campaign, throw what you like in there, and agree with opponents, then make it work.

That price though... nope, I'll pass

 

[Petitioner's City]

I've tried to rework Hangerons for Gang Showdown houseruleset, however I quickly realised that it is a very hard task and dropped them entirely.
- Outside of battle they function like a territory boon, so they do not bring anything unique to the game
- The fact that they have model kits means that there has to be a way to deploy them on the battlefield on purpose, but how do you make it beneficial to players to consider having a hangeron model at the ready?
- How do you make hangerons useful on the battlefield to make them worth bringing out? Even if we are talking about limited number of 'basic' hangerons and try to make those somewhat useful, there are some weird ones like a slopper or a gang lookout, which are clearly not combat-oriented and make no sense at the open engagement.

I wonder if making them possible career paths for existing gangers and juves - essential turning them into a modern version of Hive Ken - is the way? Yes you end up with models that don't fit a gang aesthetic, but then convert away your own narker or scout or whatever else.

Alternatively, you make them generic hireable fighters like the scum drivers (ie give them a true cost, and make them otherwise function like gangers in terms of gang development) and make it so they always can fight, are semi-decent at least in combat, etc.

Alternatively make them hired guns, just like hired guns of old (not the modern crap system).

 

[spafe]

I wonder if making them possible career paths for existing gangers and juves

That is genius!, as an option to promote, instead of becoming a specialist or champion (following a strictly gang heiracrhy path), they branch out into other side hustles, whipping up propaganda to inprove the gangs rep with the masses, or apprentice at a vet school to learn how to better patch up comrades, or whatever. That would give some amazing growth to the gangers, and lean into the newmunda mindset of gangs performing a bit like a tv drama with key charcters (prospects, champs and leader), and side characters (juves and gangers), as mid season/new season (downtime or new camapign), support characters might get their own arc and become central characters in their own right.

hmm, might have to have a think and table this with my gaming group