Necromunda The Sump: General hobby venting thread (Beware: old men shouting at clouds)

[MusingWarboss]

It’s going to be Ten Years since they “found” a spare palette of the 4th Space Hulk at the back of their warehouse and then put it up for sale, very briefly, online.

Both 3rd and 4th were limited edition runs, almost identical too bar a few extras put in the 4th Ed so it was different from 3rd. Then of course the “missing pallet” a couple of years later let them sell the limited 4th edition again by claiming it wasn’t a reprint of 4th but a somehow unaccounted for missing batch. Hmmm

Space Hulk hasn’t been a proper boxed game since The 90s.

Silly thing is, they have a lot of games they could have as fun things to gain entry into their IP but they won’t in case they take money away from the main lines.

 

[Ben_S]

With Blood Bowl I genuinely don't understand what was wrong with the tried and tested Orcs vs Humans starter set.

I don't mind something different for variety. High Elves would probably have been a perfectly decent choice. Probably better than either Brets or Tomb Kings.

In my ideal world though, the starter wouldn't be tied to any teams. They could make a similar box with rules, pitch, tokens, etc but no teams. And then they would have a special deal price for that box plus any two teams for £X. (I assume X would be a bit more than the current box, but less than the three things separately.)

 

[ntw3001]

You have what team in mind? I enjoyed the new teams like the one mixing human, elves, dwarves...

The teams in the 2020 box, black orcs and imperial nobility. The team releases in general were fine (although they seemed to be following the rule 'new rules in every box', which IMO didn't make anything better).

Old World Alliance is probably the team you mean (actually released at the tail end of the 2016 edition). Just humans, dwarfs and halflings though, elves stick to their own teams. They're maybe the top team in the 2025 edition, due to getting all the buffs from their parent rosters with none of the cuts.

 

[Mr. M]

Silly thing is, they have a lot of games they could have as fun things to gain entry into their IP but they won’t in case they take money away from the main lines.

This is so true (and truly silly)! Not having a consistenly available starter game has the knock-on effect of preventing organic growth from word-of-mouth/grassroots gaming. For example, if all those decades ago my friend's older brothers weren't playing Space Hulk, a group of 5-6 of us would never have made the move into wargaming from RPGs (at least we wouldn't have gotten the wargaming bug in our formative years). Based on how unpopular wargaming was when I was a teenager, with the rise of video games in full swing and also the early years of Magic the Gathering, without our exposure to Space Hulk my little gaming group may never have moved into wargaming. Heck, by the time I was in college it was the heyday of board games, so most people who would have been inclined to play something like Space Hulk (if it had been available, which it wasn't), were instead playing Settlers of Catan and Power Grid.

To be fair, perhaps Blackstone Fortress was another pretty good "starter game" that GW produced more recently than Space Hulk... However, that was also taken out-of-print despite being apparently quite popular.

 

[Beebopalulla]

It was good but not stressed building like space hulk. So not the same public. Deathwatch overkill was a good middle ground between quest and space hulk.

 

[Wasteland]

It was good but not stressed building like space hulk. So not the same public. Deathwatch overkill was a good middle ground between quest and space hulk.

Very good game. It even had extra rules for new marines in WD. Sadly GW never really expanded it with supplements.

 

[MusingWarboss]

Unfortunately it seems as though GW boxed games became a self-fulfilling prophesy in that things like the HeroQuest/Space Crusade/Battle Masters collaborations with MB Games had nothing to do with GW rule systems at all and were entirely playable games on their own BUT they did provide a useful, simple step into their universe and provided a chunk of cheap models to start playing the Warhammer branded games with.

GW then did their own version with the Advanced sets, plus solely owned by them games such as Space Hulk, Blood Bowl, Dark Future (sadly failed setting), Chainsaw Warrior, the various Trolls games, Lost Patrol, a whole host of mini games and so on.

Some were purely games in their own right, others steps into getting into the Warhammer games. They were truly Games Workshop back then.

Let’s have Epic battles, space fleets and huge scale Inquisition bands alongside the 28mm lines!

Somehow then these just evolved into boxed sets to preview new 28mm miniatures, or scenery, for either Warhammer Fantasy or Warhammer 40k.

Even the customers punished innovation and the temerity to actually produce a one-off boxed game (Dreadfleet) rather than more fodder for the main lines.

Other settings were eventually dropped or quietly just supported in the background (LotR) and differing scales were shelved. Only the main two lines and only 28mm Heroic were promoted.

Now that’s moved to 32mm and while Specialist Games has attempted to resurrect the older more innovative stuff, in the most expensive way possible, it’s still implied by the name that these are niche within a niche affairs and not in any way designed for the new customer to start with.

 

[Ben_S]

Even the customers punished innovation and the temerity to actually produce a one-off boxed game (Dreadfleet) rather than more fodder for the main lines.

I wouldn't accuse customers of punishing GW, as if it's their fault. GW went and produced something no one wanted, assuming people would buy it simply because it was limited (FOMO).

 

[Wasteland]

I wouldn't accuse customers of punishing GW, as if it's their fault. GW went and produced something no one wanted, assuming people would buy it simply because it was limited (FOMO).

Dreadfleet was an odd duck. Great models though one criticism was that random effects could cripple your fleet before the enemy looked at it. It seemed back in the day everybody knew it wouldn´t be expanded in any way so wallets stayed closed. And then there was the infamous game designer meeting. All devs had to sit in a room and watch how a marketing manager with a smile on his rat-like face forced them to witness the destruction of Dreadfleet boxes. Geez, I wonder why GW has such a bad rep.

 

[Troubled Child]

I'd have thrown money at them for a rerelease of Man'O'War but had no interest in Dreadfleet. A box of what amounted to random special character ships with absolutely no chance of further support was always going to be a hard sell.

 

[Punktaku]

What about “Dark Future” which was played with cars about the scale of Matchbox or Hot Wheelz.

 

[MusingWarboss]

I wouldn't accuse customers of punishing GW, as if it's their fault. GW went and produced something no one wanted, assuming people would buy it simply because it was limited (FOMO).

No-one wanted it because they’d become conditioned to expect some 28mm models they could cannibalise for 40k or Fantasy Battle.

This sort of game was perfectly expected from GW in the 80s and 90s.

The other problem was that when people saw ships they expected it to be the start of an ongoing new Man-o-War. It was never intended to be that it was supposed to be a one-off fun game.

People seem to be more than happy to buy FOMO stuff so I’d discount that as a factor. If it had been 28mm 40k or Fantasy FOMO it would’ve sold.

 

[ntw3001]

I bought Dreadfleet, it just wasn't very good (and wasn't well-reviewed either). GW have had plenty of stinkers using 28mm too, although having the models usable in their other games does help move boxes (remember when the only source of plastic assassins was to buy all four accompanied by a pile of carbdoard trash?).

They also have some successes: Necromunda and Blood Bowl share a scale with their bigger properties, but all the crossover in miniature usage seems to go the other way. Both rereleases could have started and ended as one-off board games. Bringing back titles and ideas from the 90s seems to work well, even if the implementation is very different.

In the end, they have a few games that lean on IP strength, network effects and the successful development of the product as a lifestyle hobby. Products that don't lean into those things are... games written by GW. Not a category that brings its own appeal. They're competing much more directly with other wargames and kickstarter hype and are much more responsive to reviews. 40k youtube rage doesn't make a blind bit of difference, but the reviews given to the most recent Warhammer Quest entry will have dented sales. 'Untested to the point that certain scenarios are functionally impossible' is... well, it's written by GW isn't it. Imagine the sales if people also didn't have a secondary (primary) use for the minis.

 

[Troubled Child]

What about “Dark Future” which was played with cars about the scale of Matchbox or Hot Wheelz.

A friend of mine has been printing off stuff for it and updating the rules, had a few test games so far.

 

[MusingWarboss]

remember when the only source of plastic assassins was to buy all four accompanied by a pile of carbdoard trash?

Yes, that’s what I meant by “preview new 28mm miniatures, or scenery, for either Warhammer Fantasy or Warhammer 40k”. It was clearly just a way to recoup the mould cost and test the waters for more model releases of that type.

The rest of the box was a lacklustre game and old models.

Shadow War: Armageddon was again a budget release designed to showcase the scenery. The rules were just old Necromunda tweaked (so they were at least decent) but all the models were old.

Etc.

 

[Wasteland]

A friend of mine has been printing off stuff for it and updating the rules, had a few test games so far.

Tell us more!

 

[Tiny]

I bought Dreadfleet. Sold it unopened years later and broke even on it.

I wanted Man-O-War 2.0... it sadly was not that. If it had been, and they'd promised expansions and support, it would have sold well IMO.

Releasing a wargame style game with no miniature crossover with other systems as a one-and-done board game experience was a terrible move.

 

[Troubled Child]

Tell us more!

As I hadn't played it in over 20 years I'm not sure what rules were new and what were original. Mostly we were discussing what changes could be made to make campaigns more feasible. The main rule change I want is the ability to fire over bends in the road because as written there is a mysterious invisible embankment protecting my enemies.

 

[Stoof]

The main rule change I want is the ability to fire over bends in the road because as written there is a mysterious invisible embankment protecting my enemies.

Hhhhhmmmm. I can't quite decide whether that's poor rules writing or clever and intentional, since roads in general don't have bends when they don't need to. Ergo the reason they bend is to bend around something whilst staying level-ish. As a boxed tabletop boardgame with card road pieces as designed, the roads are modelled but the things they are curving around are not modelled. So the rules insert the things that aren't physically there by making it impossible to shoot round corners.

Genius as a sparse tabletop boardgame, doesn't make so much sense if you play on a table with actual built up terrain.

 

[Raven Morpheus]

Just going to add my rambling $0.02...

It’s going to be Ten Years since they “found” a spare palette of the 4th Space Hulk at the back of their warehouse and then put it up for sale, very briefly, online.

Both 3rd and 4th were limited edition runs, almost identical too bar a few extras put in the 4th Ed so it was different from 3rd. Then of course the “missing pallet” a couple of years later let them sell the limited 4th edition again by claiming it wasn’t a reprint of 4th but a somehow unaccounted for missing batch. Hmmm

Space Hulk hasn’t been a proper boxed game since The 90s.

Silly thing is, they have a lot of games they could have as fun things to gain entry into their IP but they won’t in case they take money away from the main lines.

Didn't know they re-released 4th edition Space Hulk again in 2016. I bought 3rd edition sans figures from ebay, than acquired the 4th edition updated bits and the Geestealers, again from ebay, both just after the 2014 4th edition release. Never bothered with the Terminators, too expensive and I have proxies. Especially now I've acquired RTB09s and 1st edition Space Hulk+Deathwing.

Does make you wonder what prompted the 3rd/4th updates and why it's not had a 5th or just straight re-release though.


My worry with GW bringing back the old boxed games is that they won't be the same, like people hoped for Man O'War 2.0 and got Dreadfleet, Warhammer Quest "came back" totally different (AOS Silver Tower/Hammerhal, 40k Blackstone). I've read/seen reviews of the recent WHQ Darkwater that compare it to HeroQuest, hmm, yeah OK, not even close to Hasbro's 2021/2025 de-Warhammered version imho.