N18 Tough As Nails tactics card

[cobras80]

I have a query regarding the Tough As Nails tactics card from the House of Iron book.

For reference:
Choose a friendly Orlock fighter with the Gang Hierarchy (x) special rule. For the remainder of this battle, roll a d6 each time the chosen fighter suffers a wound (roll seperately for each wound caused by a single attack). On a 2+, that wound is ignored. On a 1, the fighter suffers the wound as normal and this gang tactic is immediately discarded. Should the fighter suffer an injury without suffering a wound (e.g., due to a weapon with the Gas trait), this gang tacic is immediately discarded.

My question is, should the 2+ save be attempted before any armour save rolls?

For example, my Stimmer has 4 attacks and they all hit, 3 of them wound, are the 2+ saves rolled now? Or does my opponent get 3 normal armour saves then an additional 2+ save for any failed armour saves?

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

It says when they suffer a wound, which would be after armour saves.

 

[cobras80]

If that is the case, is this card not ridiculously overpowered? Especially for gangs that don't have easy access to Gas and Toxin weapons like Goliath?

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

It is, yes :/

 

[JawRippa]

If that is the case, is this card not ridiculously overpowered? Especially for gangs that don't have easy access to Gas and Toxin weapons like Goliath?

Welcome to the 'tactics cards played RAW are garbage' club!
The card would be tolerable if it was for underdogs only or at least could not be picked every game.

 

[cobras80]

To illustrate how broken this card is, I rolled 25 times (see below) for the best two characters in my gang. Enemy Arms Master has T4, an Arc Hammer, and the Tough as Nails card in play.

In the first scenario, I got lucky and killed the Arms Master on the first try. However, I wasn't able to get him off the table in 24 subsequent tries. The Heavy Bolter also jammed on three occasions.

In the second scenario, I was only able to kill the Arms Master once in 25 tries. Additionally, the reaction attacks killed my Stimmer (who is T5 with furnace plates) on eight occasions.

This card can sponge one of the deadliest guns and close combat monsters in the game. The enemy fighter is close to invincible with this card in play, unless you have gas or toxin weapons available. Do GW actually play test any of this stuff? Only took me about 30 minutes with a handful of dice.

Forge Tyrant shooting with Heavy Bolter at short range (two ammo dice rolled):
1. AM dead, out of ammo
2. no wounds, out of ammo
3. no wounds
4. no wounds, out of ammo
5. no wounds, out of ammo
6. shot misses
7. no wounds
8. no wounds
9. no wounds
10. no wounds, gun jammed
11. no wounds
12. no wounds
13. shot misses
14. flesh wound, gun jammed
15. no wounds
16. no wounds
17. no wounds
18. no wounds
19. no wounds, gun jammed
20. shot misses
21. flesh wound
22. shot misses
23. no wounds
24. no wounds
25. seriously injured

Stimmer with paired pulverisers charging into combat:
1. 1 wound delivered
2. 1 wound delivered
3. 1 wound delivered
4. 1 wound delivered
5. no wounds
6. no wounds, stimmer dies
7. no wounds, stimmer seriously injured
8. no wounds
9. no wounds, stimmer dies
10. no wounds, stimmer dies
11. 1 wound delivered, stimmer dies
12. no wounds, stimmer 2 flesh wounds and seriously injured
13. no wounds
14. 1 wound delivered
15. no wounds, stimmer dies
16. 1 wound delivered, stimmer dies
17. no wounds
18. 1 wound delivered, stimmer seriously injured
19. AM dead
20. no wounds, stimmer dies
21. no wounds
22. no wounds, stimmer dies
23. no wounds
24. no wounds, stimmer 2 flesh wounds and seriously injured
25. 1 wound, stimmer seriously injured

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

No, they don't test it. They just throw shit at a wall.
Even when they do test stuff, they test what's in their head, not what they wrote. They also seem to play the weirdest gangs imaginable in terms of loadout and stuff. I'm sure they unironically use plasma grenades and think it's cool. Fair play to them for being that hardcore "rule of cool", but it's not realistic.

Although I think it's meant to be like an FNP save, IE; a single D2 hit will require 2 rolls, or two D2 hits would require 4, each failure letting a wound through.

 

[MusingWarboss]

To illustrate how broken this card is, I rolled 25 times (see below) for the best two characters in my gang. Enemy Arms Master has T4, an Arc Hammer, and the Tough as Nails card in play.

In the first scenario, I got lucky and killed the Arms Master on the first try. However, I wasn't able to get him off the table in 24 subsequent tries. The Heavy Bolter also jammed on three occasions.

In the second scenario, I was only able to kill the Arms Master once in 25 tries. Additionally, the reaction attacks killed my Stimmer (who is T5 with furnace plates) on eight occasions.

This card can sponge one of the deadliest guns and close combat monsters in the game. The enemy fighter is close to invincible with this card in play, unless you have gas or toxin weapons available. Do GW actually play test any of this stuff? Only took me about 30 minutes with a handful of dice.

Forge Tyrant shooting with Heavy Bolter at short range (two ammo dice rolled):
1. AM dead, out of ammo
2. no wounds, out of ammo
3. no wounds
4. no wounds, out of ammo
5. no wounds, out of ammo
6. shot misses
7. no wounds
8. no wounds
9. no wounds
10. no wounds, gun jammed
11. no wounds
12. no wounds
13. shot misses
14. flesh wound, gun jammed
15. no wounds
16. no wounds
17. no wounds
18. no wounds
19. no wounds, gun jammed
20. shot misses
21. flesh wound
22. shot misses
23. no wounds
24. no wounds
25. seriously injured

Stimmer with paired pulverisers charging into combat:
1. 1 wound delivered
2. 1 wound delivered
3. 1 wound delivered
4. 1 wound delivered
5. no wounds
6. no wounds, stimmer dies
7. no wounds, stimmer seriously injured
8. no wounds
9. no wounds, stimmer dies
10. no wounds, stimmer dies
11. 1 wound delivered, stimmer dies
12. no wounds, stimmer 2 flesh wounds and seriously injured
13. no wounds
14. 1 wound delivered
15. no wounds, stimmer dies
16. 1 wound delivered, stimmer dies
17. no wounds
18. 1 wound delivered, stimmer seriously injured
19. AM dead
20. no wounds, stimmer dies
21. no wounds
22. no wounds, stimmer dies
23. no wounds
24. no wounds, stimmer 2 flesh wounds and seriously injured
25. 1 wound, stimmer seriously injured

That’s dedication!
I’d have thought GW could have a simulation created in code for this sort of thing, so they could get the computer to roll 1000 tests and get a decent average of how their modifications affect interactions. (@Thorgor)

Then when they come up with a fun variable on a card or new profile etc they could see how well it pans out theoretically as well as in their own test games.

It’s probably be easy enough to work out on paper for anyone decent at mathematics.

But they don’t do any of this. It’s all rule of cool at the studio and they seem to be working to a version of the game which is often 6-18 months ahead of what we have. I forget the example now but I think @TopsyKretts fpund one once where something made no sense until they dropped another book later that year or early next which had a stealth update in which made the other thing work.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Some statistics seems thought through, but that's for other games

 

[Squee]

To illustrate how broken this card is, I rolled 25 times (see below) for the best two characters in my gang. Enemy Arms Master has T4, an Arc Hammer, and the Tough as Nails card in play.

In the first scenario, I got lucky and killed the Arms Master on the first try. However, I wasn't able to get him off the table in 24 subsequent tries. The Heavy Bolter also jammed on three occasions.

In the second scenario, I was only able to kill the Arms Master once in 25 tries. Additionally, the reaction attacks killed my Stimmer (who is T5 with furnace plates) on eight occasions.

This card can sponge one of the deadliest guns and close combat monsters in the game. The enemy fighter is close to invincible with this card in play, unless you have gas or toxin weapons available. Do GW actually play test any of this stuff? Only took me about 30 minutes with a handful of dice.

Forge Tyrant shooting with Heavy Bolter at short range (two ammo dice rolled):
1. AM dead, out of ammo
2. no wounds, out of ammo
3. no wounds
4. no wounds, out of ammo
5. no wounds, out of ammo
6. shot misses
7. no wounds
8. no wounds
9. no wounds
10. no wounds, gun jammed
11. no wounds
12. no wounds
13. shot misses
14. flesh wound, gun jammed
15. no wounds
16. no wounds
17. no wounds
18. no wounds
19. no wounds, gun jammed
20. shot misses
21. flesh wound
22. shot misses
23. no wounds
24. no wounds
25. seriously injured

Stimmer with paired pulverisers charging into combat:
1. 1 wound delivered
2. 1 wound delivered
3. 1 wound delivered
4. 1 wound delivered
5. no wounds
6. no wounds, stimmer dies
7. no wounds, stimmer seriously injured
8. no wounds
9. no wounds, stimmer dies
10. no wounds, stimmer dies
11. 1 wound delivered, stimmer dies
12. no wounds, stimmer 2 flesh wounds and seriously injured
13. no wounds
14. 1 wound delivered
15. no wounds, stimmer dies
16. 1 wound delivered, stimmer dies
17. no wounds
18. 1 wound delivered, stimmer seriously injured
19. AM dead
20. no wounds, stimmer dies
21. no wounds
22. no wounds, stimmer dies
23. no wounds
24. no wounds, stimmer 2 flesh wounds and seriously injured
25. 1 wound, stimmer seriously injured

Well, wouldn't you know it, with this card the Armsmaster become really tough... TOUGH AS NAILS, one might even say!
Joking aside, RaW Tactics cards are ridiculously unbalanced, and as far as I can tell, that is very much what was intended by the designers. There's a debate whether it's worth fixing or not, but I guess you have your own ways to resolve this.

 

[MusingWarboss]

Joking aside, RaW Tactics cards are ridiculously unbalanced, and as far as I can tell, that is very much what was intended by the designers. There's a debate whether it's worth fixing or not, but I guess you have your own ways to resolve this.

I can’t comment on this particular card but in general the Tactics Cards are very much plot points in a story rather than any form of balancing mechanism.

Dunno if that helps resolving a desire to fix or not but IMO they very much seem designed as those moments in a film where the unexpected or miraculous happens, or even in this case the ‘boss character’ appears. Hence why giving a few to underdogs can make it seem more like the stuff you see in a movie.

If you’re into fun storytelling they can be fine, if you’re using them as actual tactics you’re stuffed.

Click... for example is cinematic, that moment in a western where the villain is on the verge of winning and runs out of ammo just giving our hero the time to escape and turn the situation around.

As a tactic in a game... it sucks if it comes out every time.

These things really need to be one use per campaign or even used then discarded until you run out of cards, then reshuffle the discard pile and start again.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Yeah, a lot of cards are super niche and probably intended to be used in that perfect 'cinematic' moment. Problem is they are applied across all games in a truly random fashion. Ideally there would be some third person acting as a 'director', looking over the game with the long list of hundreds of cards, and during a few times during the battle apply the most appropriate card. That would allow even the worst crap cards some value. A juve trapped in a corner, out of ammo and pursued by an enemy ambot closing in? Suddenly, there's a trusty backup stub gun! Enemy heavy bolter shoots down enemy after enemy, but right before targeting the last one, your favourite, the only one that could turn the battle and accomplish the mission - Click! Stuff like that.

But when you throw all cards out there at random, trusty backup gun will be garbage in 99.9% of all situations. Click will be OP in 99% of all situations. And of course the topic of discussion: Tough as Nails. It would be a funny card to come in play for an underdog who's whole gang got wiped, except for one badass orlock with a huge hammer, continuing forward, refusing to go down like the rest of the gang. But in a more realistic scenario, orlock may use this to stomp an underdog, who in turn got that trusty backup stub gun 😂

 

[MusingWarboss]

Ideally there would be some third person acting as a 'director', looking over the game with the long list of hundreds of cards, and during a few times during the battle apply the most appropriate card.

😂 Give the Arbitrator more work why don’t you!

In seriousness though, that is how an RPG is actually played! Plus it’d make a heck of a lot more sense to taking your suitcase of cards if you were the one GM-ing and could deploy them as needed.

So yeah, as always their implementation is poor but I think the core of why they were there in the Underhive box was to be thematic twists. A lot of cards are ludicrous as you say, and I suspect a lot of players don’t play N17+ as an RPG experience but as a competitive one.

 

[cobras80]

Something I noticed in the rules regarding the wording of the Dodge Skill:

If this fighter suffers a wound from a ranged or close combat attack, roll a D6. On a 6, the attack is dodged and has no further effect; otherwise, continue to make a save or resolve the wound as normal.

Similarly to the Tough as Nails tactic card, it says that a 6+ save is taken when the fighter suffers a wound. Otherwise continue to make a save.

So if the Dodge skill is used before armour saves are taken, wouldn't the same be true for Tough as Nails?

 

[Stompzilla]

Yeah, this card is an utter swine to play against.

D2 weapons help. Choke round for your grenade launchers can put it down fairly quickly, as can web weapons.

If you're interested, I came up with a really dirty forge boss who takes care of this pretty handily, along with Heavily armoured plasma/melta & shield toting Van-Saar and 4 wound Road Captains etc.

 

[spafe]

I've always drafted my cards (draw 3, pick one to keep) as it stops me always using the same ones (and lifes too short to bother learning all the cards to find the best combos). tough as nails has come up twice I think... both times it didnt change the course of the game. it helped for sure, but when your 'not built for combat' arms master is locked in combat with an oversized pissed off gorrilla (goliath forgeboss) or a crazy super ninja samuri (natch ghoul), even with the 2+ save it only ends one way.

I can see how they would be very frustrating to play against though. I would basically pin lock/set fire to it if facing one I think

 

[cobras80]

Yeah, this card is an utter swine to play against.

D2 weapons help. Choke round for your grenade launchers can put it down fairly quickly, as can web weapons.

If you're interested, I came up with a really dirty forge boss who takes care of this pretty handily, along with Heavily armoured plasma/melta & shield toting Van-Saar and 4 wound Road Captains etc.

I have managed to negate this card once using Incendiary charges and Choke grenades, but I still lost the scenario because it drew so much of my attention. Leaving his plasma gun champion to get more shots off.

Interested to hear your Forge Boss build to deal with the card.

I've always drafted my cards (draw 3, pick one to keep) as it stops me always using the same ones (and lifes too short to bother learning all the cards to find the best combos). tough as nails has come up twice I think... both times it didnt change the course of the game. it helped for sure, but when your 'not built for combat' arms master is locked in combat with an oversized pissed off gorrilla (goliath forgeboss) or a crazy super ninja samuri (natch ghoul), even with the 2+ save it only ends one way.

I can see how they would be very frustrating to play against though. I would basically pin lock/set fire to it if facing one I think

I think we will be moving to an 'always pick tactics cards randomly' rule in our next campaign (regardless of the scenario). This card is a game breaker, particularly when combined with the Arc Hammer, Nerves of Steel and a Respirator.

 

[Stompzilla]

I have managed to negate this card once using Incendiary charges and Choke grenades, but I still lost the scenario because it drew so much of my attention. Leaving his plasma gun champion to get more shots off.

Interested to hear your Forge Boss build to deal with the card.



I think we will be moving to an 'always pick tactics cards randomly' rule in our next campaign (regardless of the scenario). This card is a game breaker, particularly when combined with the Arc Hammer, Nerves of Steel and a Respirator.

Forge Boss:
Unborn shooting,
Doc's experiment (-1s, +1W)
Scar Tissue,
Webgun,
Stimm slug stash.

He's also quite handy at taking down Van-Saar, hip shooting melta champions (Which is why I originally came up with him as a counter).

 

[cobras80]

Forge Boss:
Unborn shooting,
Doc's experiment (-1s, +1W)
Scar Tissue,
Webgun,
Stimm slug stash.

He's also quite handy at taking down Van-Saar, hip shooting melta champions (Which is why I originally came up with him as a counter).

That's quite an inventive solution. It seems a bit weird having a Goliath using Web weapons, but I guess needs must in this situation.