Toxin - or "if I cut you, do you not bleed?"

[Thorgor]

the chem thrower both have gas and toxic as rules

I've checked both Underhive (p71) and Gang War (p33), and the weapon is only listed with Gas and Template.
Is there another profile somewhere that also has Toxin? If so, it's probably an error, as Toxin doesn't make sense on this weapon.

I have been trying to find some text in the rulesbook that sais when you should make the injury roll and when you should just subtract a wound

Since they had the great idea to separate the advanced rules from the basic rules, you need to check 2 different pages. Here you go:

Underhive p53:

3. INFLICT DAMAGE
The target's Wounds characteristic is reduced by the attacking weapon's Damage value (or by 1 if the attack does not have a Damage value). This reduction lasts for the rest of the battle.

Underhive p61:

lf a fighter's Wounds characteristic is reduced to 0 by an attack, or if an attack lnflicts Damage on a fighter whose Wounds characteristic has already been reduced to 0, the attacking player makes an lnjury roll by rolling a number of lnjury dice equal to the attacking weapon's Damage characteristic

Note that the rules as they are written do a (presumably) poor job at handling multi-wound fighters being wounded by multi-damage attacks (if a W2 fighter is wounded by a D2 attack, they go to 0 wound and roll 2 Injury dice with the rules as written (instead of the expected 1 Injury die)).

 

[Teslis]

I've checked both Underhive (p71) and Gang War (p33), and the weapon is only listed with Gas and Template.
Is there another profile somewhere that also has Toxin? If so, it's probably an error, as Toxin doesn't make sense on this weapon.

f**k. I could have sworn that it was. But I double checked it. And you are absolutely right. Then I will you you guys in the hit => armour => toxic.

Note that the rules as they are written do a (presumably) poor job at handling multi-wound fighters being wounded by multi-damage attacks (if a W2 fighter is wounded by a D2 attack, they go to 0 wound and roll 2 Injury dice with the rules as written (instead of the expected 1 Injury die)).

That has to be just porely written. Thanks for the clarification

 

[Mr Morden]

If GW don not sort it out and most people use the sensible Hit, save , Toxin version then you could always have abonues for those mult-wound models with wounds remainig - Say +2 per additional wound remaining after the first. or just +1 if thats too much.

So a unhurt Goliath Champion with 2 wounds left would roll D6+6 vs the 2D6 Toxin roll which seems good odds?

 

[el_ojo_y_la_sombra]

You can also make toxin to autowound and if causes a injury roll than substitute for the 2d6 vs 1d6+T
This make toxin the same against 1 W models but multiwound ones retains value.

 

[JTzara]

I've been playing around with an alternative fix for this which looks quite good, at least on paper (there's a breakdown you can see on Imgur here).

My suggestion is basically to treat toxin as a special effect that you apply before damage from your weapon is calculated. So it's in addition to a normal injury roll rather than instead of one.

1. To hit
2. To wound
3. To Save
4. 2d6 vs. 1d6 + Toughness, exactly as described in the Weapon Traits.
5. Apply damage. If the target is reduced to 0 wounds roll a normal injury dice.

(there might be a case for swapping 5 & 6)

Inspiration behind this is that the needle rifle has a damage of "-" whilst the sword and knife have a value of "1". (I know that in the basic rules it says that these values are equivalent, but let’s put this down to it being before toxin or gas traits have been introduced). It’s intuitive, in that the needle rifle still has a poison effect (i.e. a big boost to taking someone OOA, which matters at range) but also a chance to have no effect, which feels right. CC weapons on the other hand can still cause flesh wounds, they behave in fact just like ‚normal‘ swords or knives, just with a boost to taking out an opponent due to the poison.

Best of all the outcomes (see the link) are really nice, granting improved chances which are always better than the fighting knife, justifying to extra 5 creds you pay for a stiletto rather than a fighting knife without taking it completely outside the normal wounds mechanic, which I think might be a bit overpowered.

 

[Jacob Dryearth]

I've been playing around with an alternative fix for this which looks quite good, at least on paper (there's a breakdown you can see on Imgur here).

My suggestion is basically to treat toxin as a special effect that you apply before damage from your weapon is calculated. So it's in addition to a normal injury roll rather than instead of one.

1. To hit
2. To wound
3. To Save
4. 2d6 vs. 1d6 + Toughness, exactly as described in the Weapon Traits.
5. Apply damage. If the target is reduced to 0 wounds roll a normal injury dice.

(there might be a case for swapping 5 & 6)

Inspiration behind this is that the needle rifle has a damage of "-" whilst the sword and knife have a value of "1". (I know that in the basic rules it says that these values are equivalent, but let’s put this down to it being before toxin or gas traits have been introduced). It’s intuitive, in that the needle rifle still has a poison effect (i.e. a big boost to taking someone OOA, which matters at range) but also a chance to have no effect, which feels right. CC weapons on the other hand can still cause flesh wounds, they behave in fact just like ‚normal‘ swords or knives, just with a boost to taking out an opponent due to the poison.

Best of all the outcomes (see the link) are really nice, granting improved chances which are always better than the fighting knife, justifying to extra 5 creds you pay for a stiletto rather than a fighting knife without taking it completely outside the normal wounds mechanic, which I think might be a bit overpowered.

Good idea, I have not checked the numbers but I like how your interpretation don't drastically change rules, but uses what's available with one slight change : toxn in addition to normal wounding.

 

[JTzara]

Good idea, I have not checked the numbers but I like how your interpretation don't drastically change rules, but uses what's available with one slight change : toxn in addition to normal wounding.

Yes, it would be a rule change that would require minimal changes to the rulebook and weapon trait, and reasonable ones imo. ('-' is treated as '1' only if not using the advanced rules, toxin check takes place in addition to any injury rolls caused by damage).

The numbers look really good. They're in the link. Basically the effect is to steadily increase the chances of SI or OOA as the toughness of the target goes down, from a baseline roughly equivalent to a fighting knife attack (the stiletto is still quite a lot more likely to cause an SI or an OOA wound to a T4 target, but the chances of doing nothing are the same as attacking with a normal fighting knife).

 

[Cpt. Boriel]

That good sir, is a very elegant and balanced solution.


In reference to his link a power sword in the same hands as a total OoA of about 23% and shock whip about 18% vs T3.

So it’s a tad overpowered. But it is escher’s signature thing. Makes chem synth a bit weak though


Edit: in convo with my pal, the one thing this solution does not do: address the combat ability of the S2 juve.

 

[Kairae]

I think that's a very elegant partial solution but there's a couple of problems with your argument.
1. Fighting knives are extremely difficult to compare statistically because their strength is dependant on in-game context (due Backstab): use a Sword vs Stiletto Sword as the point of comparison instead. Toxin needs to be worth +1 to Hit and 10 creds to be viable.
2. You don't show the numbers vs T5 or 6. Both of these are relatively common with Goliath's present in a meta.
3. The stats for your Suggested Fix treat Flesh Wounds as 'no effect'. It makes a direct comparison less easy.

The reason I think it's only a partial solution is because I don't think the marginal improvement you're seeing accounts for the stats decreases Stiletto's have over their peer weapons. I'm busy tonight so can't run the numbers, but I think a regular Sword will be roughly as good as your proposed Stiletto Sword. I'd be very surprised if your proposed fix is better than a regular Sword vs T5.

 

[JTzara]

I think that's a very elegant partial solution but there's a couple of problems with your argument.
1. Fighting knives are extremely difficult to compare statistically because their strength is dependant on in-game context (due Backstab): use a Sword vs Stiletto Sword as the point of comparison instead. Toxin needs to be worth +1 to Hit and 10 creds to be viable.
2. You don't show the numbers vs T5 or 6. Both of these are relatively common with Goliath's present in a meta.
3. The stats for your Suggested Fix treat Flesh Wounds as 'no effect'. It makes a direct comparison less easy.

The reason I think it's only a partial solution is because I don't think the marginal improvement you're seeing accounts for the stats decreases Stiletto's have over their peer weapons. I'm busy tonight so can't run the numbers, but I think a regular Sword will be roughly as good as your proposed Stiletto Sword. I'd be very surprised if your proposed fix is better than a regular Sword vs T5.

Good morning! Thanks for the thoughts.

1. Yes, Sword vs. Stiletto sword is a better comparison. I checked my numbers again and did a comparison of the power sword vs. the sword vs. the stiletto sword. (this time I gave the target mesh armour to let the full effect of the power swords AP come into play, stiletto sword figures include the fix).I think that the numbers are still quite encouraging, although your expectations are more or less borne out. The sword has a better chance of doing _something_ than the stiletto sword, but the stiletto sword still has a better chance of taking the opponent SI or OOA which amount to the same thing in close combat. Given that the intention of toxin seems to be to make it high risk, high reward, I can live with this. Of course if the sword and the stiletto sword had the same stats with only the 'toxin' keyword being different, then the sword would be the limiting case, even against a T5 target (which I haven't done the analysis for, but you must be right). This solution at least means that adding the 'toxin' keyword to a weapon is _always_ a benefit. (Given the weapon profile inconsistencies we've already seen, it's not all that unlikely that the sword isn't supposed to have a +1 to hit or the stiletto sword is supposed to have it, too). The Stiletto sword will probably get an edge if we take chem-synth into account, too. (Especially if chem-synth affected the next attack made, and didn't just apply in the same activation, but that's another debate)

2. No, I haven't done an analysis against this, yet, but it's safe to say that toxin will rapidly limit to the baseline stats of the weapon it applies to as toughness increases. If we want toxin to make weapons effective against these kind of high toughness targets (which are only really likely to come up in a campaign against Goliath, right?) then we are looking at making much more substantial changes to the rules for toxin, like replacing the to wound mechanic. My own suspicion is that this will make the keyword overpowered.

3. Look again! Flesh wounds and no effect should be separately listed for each of the alternatives. Each table is a single attack, and takes into account no effect (through missing, failing to wound, a succesful save, or wounding and the toxin check having no effect in the rules as written case, where toxin can't cause fleshwounds), a successful hit and wound followed by a failed save and fleshwound, a succesful hit and wound followed by a failed save SI, etc.). I'm doing this in quite a clunky analytic way though, with a bunch of excel formulae, so checking would be welcome. If I'd known I was going to be doing more analyses I would have set up a monte carlo simulation to get better numbers, but I was lazy.

Sorry for the wall of text.

TL;DR: 1. There's a comparison of swords in the link. 2. The fix won't make toxin a toughness killer, but it will improve the existing toxin weapons and will always be a benefit to the weapon it's applied to. 3. Fleshwounds are listed seperately in the analyses.

 

[JTzara]

That good sir, is a very elegant and balanced solution.


In reference to his link a power sword in the same hands as a total OoA of about 23% and shock whip about 18% vs T3.

So it’s a tad overpowered. But it is escher’s signature thing. Makes chem synth a bit weak though


Edit: in convo with my pal, the one thing this solution does not do: address the combat ability of the S2 juve.

No, juves will still be dependent on attacking fleshwounded targets or using chem-synth. Chem synth does give quite a boost to toxin weapons even with the fix though (why do you think the fix it makes it weak?), although I think it would be better if it were something that could apply to the _next_ attack made, rather than an attack in the same activation. This would put Escher juves on a level playing field with T3 targets, and give them a chance against Goliath gangers.

 

[Kairae]

3. Your 'Suggested Fix' Stiletto Knife vs T4 adds up to 102%. The 2% is counting Flesh Wounds as both 'no effect' and 'Flesh Wound'.



I think you fix Chem-synth by simply applying its effect without an action. It means that a Stiletto Sword + Chemsynth would need to compete with a Powersword (which it will with your solution).

This in concert with your solution seems to work very well (and would keep the Stilleto Sword better than the Sword under all conditions, even without modifying the stats). It's why I originally said I thought that yours was only a 'partial' fix.

Oh, and to get the 'full' benefit of Power you need to be running it vs 4+ Save. I'm not certain Power is included in your numbers?

 

[JTzara]

3. Your 'Suggested Fix' Stiletto Knife vs T4 adds up to 102%. The 2% is counting Flesh Wounds as both 'no effect' and 'Flesh Wound'.



I think you fix Chem-synth by simply applying its effect without an action. It means that a Stiletto Sword + Chemsynth would need to compete with a Powersword (which it will with your solution).

This in concert with your solution seems to work very well (and would keep the Stilleto Sword better than the Sword under all conditions, even without modifying the stats). It's why I originally said I thought that your was only a 'partial' fix.

Yes! I noticed this last night- the 'no effect' sums incorrectly. Sorry, I misunderstood you. I have fixed it in the new analyses

 

[JTzara]

3. Your 'Suggested Fix' Stiletto Knife vs T4 adds up to 102%. The 2% is counting Flesh Wounds as both 'no effect' and 'Flesh Wound'.



I think you fix Chem-synth by simply applying its effect without an action. It means that a Stiletto Sword + Chemsynth would need to compete with a Powersword (which it will with your solution).

This in concert with your solution seems to work very well (and would keep the Stilleto Sword better than the Sword under all conditions, even without modifying the stats). It's why I originally said I thought that your was only a 'partial' fix.

I agree with you that modifying chem-synth will improve the fix. I like the idea of it still costing an action, but applying to the next attack you make, regardless of when this comes. So you have to ready your toxin troops a few turns before you charge into combat. Making it a free action seems a bit too much, but the difference is presumably pretty minor.

 

[Kairae]

All that does is add an accounting burden. If the issue is Gas (I really don't think it's an issue with Gas due the ease of access to Respirators; I actually think Gas needs it almost as much as Toxin does), then you can make it an action to work for Gas and automatic for Toxin.

At 50pts a Stiletto Sword + auto-Chemsynth will be roughly on par with a Powersword (the Powersword being slightly better due to the effects of Power occasionally granting DAM2, AP-3 and parrying vs Powerweapons - as this doesn't seem to be modelled in your analysis). This is where it should be placed.

 

[JTzara]

All that does is add an accounting burden. If the issue is Gas (I really don't think it's an issue with Gas due the ease of access to Respirators; I actually think Gas needs it almost as much as Toxin does), then you can make it an action to work for Gas and automatic for Toxin.

At 50pts a Stiletto Sword + auto-Chemsynth will be roughly on par with a Powersword (the Powersword being slightly better due to the effects of Power occasionally granting DAM2, AP-3 and parrying vs Powerweapons - as this doesn't seem to be modelled in your analysis). This is where it should be placed.

No, I didn't account for the power keyword in the analysis.

I'm open on chem-synth requiring an action and 'priming' the weapon or being auto, but I'd be in favour of it being the same for both gas and toxin.

I suppose the advantage to keeping an action cost for chem-synth is that it retains a little of the original flavour, and there are circumstances where it might not be applied, whereas an auto-effect feels like it might as well just be lumped in with toxin and gas as 'superior toxin' or 'superior gas'. But as I say it's not a hill I'm prepared to die on! And you are quite right about the accounting burden.

 

[Cpt. Boriel]

It seems to work out well. as far as the chem synth, under this HR of toxin, it seems to add about 4%-6% chance to OOA with a single WS4+ Melee attack. for 15points, a free action sounds right and keeps the clutter and book keeping down.

EDIT: it seems I am mistaken, i had forgotten that chem synth reduces T for the purpose of wounding as well. I'll try to finish up adjusting the notes before I have to leave for work

EDIT 2: I was able to put everything together faster than I thought. It appears that with this fix, a chem'd up Stiletto Sword is slightly better than a power sword. but obviously cannot do DAMAGE 2 and cannot parry power weapons. I think this is right around where we want to be. I'd suggest maybe an INT check to apply chem synth as a free action, fail = simple action.?


heres a link to my excel notes. this stiletto version is the tab Stiletto 3

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Wi8YLgBqB5Y6ay-IL-AInRe04E/edit#gid=236441263

 

[JTzara]

It seems to work out well. as far as the chem synth, under this HR of toxin, it seems to add about 4%-6% chance to OOA with a single WS4+ Melee attack. for 15points, a free action sounds right and keeps the clutter and book keeping down.

EDIT: it seems I am mistaken, i had forgotten that chem synth reduces T for the purpose of wounding as well. I'll try to finish up adjusting the notes before I have to leave for work

EDIT 2: I was able to put everything together faster than I thought. It appears that with this fix, a chem'd up Stiletto Sword is slightly better than a power sword. but obviously cannot do DAMAGE 2 and cannot parry power weapons. I think this is right around where we want to be. I'd suggest maybe an INT check to apply chem synth as a free action, fail = simple action.?


heres a link to my excel notes. this stiletto version is the tab Stiletto 3

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Wi8YLgBqB5Y6ay-IL-AInRe04E/edit#gid=236441263

I don't have the rights to look at your Excel sheet, but it's reassuring that someone else has looked at it and come to similar conclusions! It seems that including a change to chem-synth takes usto more or less where we want to be. I'll be recommending to my group to make a change in addition to the toxin HR. I think all ideas are good, it's just a question of how much book keeping you're prepared to do and what people are happy with/prepared to accept.

(have we looked into the effect of making chem-synth easier on the needle rifle btw? Would it give it too much of a boost? It would be a shame to have different rules for Chem-Synth when shooting and when using it in CC- this seems to me to be a point in favour of your INT check solution, or something like it).

 

[Cpt. Boriel]

I don't have the rights to look at your Excel sheet, but it's reassuring that someone else has looked at it and come to similar conclusions! It seems that including a change to chem-synth takes usto more or less where we want to be. I'll be recommending to my group to make a change in addition to the toxin HR. I think all ideas are good, it's just a question of how much book keeping you're prepared to do and what people are happy with/prepared to accept.

(have we looked into the effect of making chem-synth easier on the needle rifle btw? Would it give it too much of a boost? It would be a shame to have different rules for Chem-Synth when shooting and when using it in CC- this seems to me to be a point in favour of your INT check solution, or something like it).

The needle rifle should be fine. Because of the damage 2 and the range on the bolter, it is still by far the superior choice.

The more I think about it. The Int check for a free poison action seems to work. And balance out with the power sword nicely.

My only issue with all this is 1) stiletto knives are just as dangerous as the sword version but are mucho cheaper. Parry can’t be worth 15 creds in this edition, what with the way CC works now. In the old version, parrying their 6’s was strong! Now forcing a reroll (usually on a 3+ to hit) grants about a +22% to not be hit, and only by that 1 single attack.

 

[Kairae]

Parry costs 15. All this analysis is showing is what is already true: the only meaningful difference between the 2 weapons is Parry. Whether Parry is worth 15pts is a separate discussion.

Looking at JT’s earlier analysis you can tell what effect the ChemSynth would have: just look at the lower toughness column. This means that if you ignore Power, multiwound Fighters and T>5 fighters then a 50cred set of equipment is comparable with a 45cred item.

Power alone will go along way to boosting Powerswords vs Free-action Chem-Synth+Stiletto Swords.

@Boriel access to your spreadsheet is locked.