N18 Underdog Hired Guns and Bottle Checks

[Lorenzo666]

So, in the campaign I am currently playing, I recently had a game where from the starting crews, my gang had a 325 credit disadvantage and so I bought a random Underdog Tactics card and 120 credits of Hive Scum across 2 models.

The question is- Would these Hive Scum have counted toward my starting crew for purposes of Bottle Checks? Should I be capable of bottling at 1 casualty or 3?

Relevant rules in the rulebook

BOTTLE TESTS
At the start of the End phase, either or both players will be required to make a Bottle test for their gang if one or more of their fighters are either Seriously Injured or Out of Action.To make a Bottle test for the gang, roll a D6 and add to the result the total number of fighters that are Seriously Injured or Out of Action. If the final result is higher than the total number of fighters in the starting crew (the number of fighters who were present at the start of the battle,see page 506), then the gang as a whole has failed the Bottle test and has bottled out.

"You Get What You Pay For”: Unlike other fighters, Hive Scum are not counted during the Choose Crew step of the pre-battle sequence. Instead, at the end of this step, any Hive Scum available to the gang may be added to the crew, regardless of the Crew Selection method in use. This may take the number of fighters in a starting crew above the number specified by the scenario.
(Argument exists here that as the Underdog Bonus comes in after crew selection, any Hive Scum bought from Underdog Bonus does not benefit from this rule, as it is quite specific that it as at the END of the CREW SELECTION phase that the rule comes into effect)

A reddit thread had this response to the same question:
"So it looks like the underdog bonus rules explicitly say that they don't count towards starting size for bottle checks and that fighters brought that way can't be group activated. This implies that if you pay for them normally they can do all those things. So I guess that answers that."
(After combing through the rulebook, myself and a few other players couldn't find a rule like this in the Necromunda Comprehensive Rulebook)

A few players are on one side saying that they shouldn't contribute as they are Hired Guns and shouldn't boost the morale of the gang (has a logic to it)
Another player says " As far as I am aware yes even if you get them as underdog bonuses, they add to your starting crew and therefore count for bottle checks. It's another benefit of coming in as underdog, you get to spend the difference on cheap as f**k hive scum, upping the amount you start with, and therefore making it harder for you to bottle. Downside is you have more targets on the field for the enemy to gain xp from, and any kills made with your underdog dudes won't go anywhere."
But has yet to provide a rulebook source for this logic, but again, makes sense.

Any input? Because if so, that would have made a LOT of difference in my last game as I failed a bottle check really on, but if I wasn't even meant to be making a bottle check at that point, then that changes the game completely.

 

[Lorenzo666]

For clarification, my crew from crew selection was 6

 

[Marchog]

Your starting crew was six and then you hired two Scum, that brings your starting crew to eight. At least that is my interpretation.

 

[spafe]

Personally Id play it as they do count. I am pretty sure the Reddit thread person is correct that they shouldnt count, if you want to play/read like a computer programmer. However, gw do no write their rules like that, so to me, the intent is fairly clear, the underdog needs some help, throw some extra people their way to make the game worth playing. There really isnt much more thought than that, and they will write it with a similar disregard for exact order as defined by each exact step.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Personally Id play it as they do count. I am pretty sure the Reddit thread person is correct that they shouldnt count, if you want to play/read like a computer programmer. However, gw do no write their rules like that, so to me, the intent is fairly clear, the underdog needs some help, throw some extra people their way to make the game worth playing. There really isnt much more thought than that, and they will write it with a similar disregard for exact order as defined by each exact step.

Funny part is when GW imitates formal rules by having numbered sequences in the pre- and post-battle sequences. This ordering is only important for a few things and those are very obvious. So a bit of hit and miss in the attempt to sometimes be accurate (but fails) and just give up and make pseudo rules.

Also, how come this was necroed now and left unanswered for so long?

 

[spafe]

Also, how come this was necroed now and left unanswered for so long?

good point, I missed that this was necro'd from the depths!

 

[TopsyKretts]

(Argument exists here that as the Underdog Bonus comes in after crew selection, any Hive Scum bought from Underdog Bonus does not benefit from this rule, as it is quite specific that it as at the END of the CREW SELECTION phase that the rule comes into effect)

This argument is mute. Because the bonus rule of hired guns ("You Get What You Pay For”) says that these are 'bonus' fighters in addition to what is specified by the scenario. Same is true for your other 'bonus' fighters from the underdog tactics. So it doesn't matter that your bonus dudes are added after the determine crew step, no matter when they are added, they will be in addition to the standard crew size. However, the Underdog tactics say to play this card before determining crew. So it is played before it is drawn.

A reddit thread had this response to the same question:
"So it looks like the underdog bonus rules explicitly say that they don't count towards starting size
for bottle checks and that fighters brought that way can't be group activated.
This implies that if you pay for them normally they can do all those things. So I guess that answers that."

This is correct and so you played it correct, bottling after 1 down/OoA instead of 3.

However! Keep in mind a few notes:
- These rules are from a different version of the game (N19). Hired Guns were buffed in N20 because of complaints about their high cost. Traditionally GW scuffed this away by saying you can choose gear after knowing the opponent. This is little consolation compared to the high investment cost and that it only lasts for one battle. So GW 'fixed' this in N20 (I believe) with an update saying these are in addition to normal crew. Which is a solid buff.
- These rules are from a White Dwarf article, meaning it was written by an intern who never played the game. Take it with a grain of salt. It has exceptionally low quality and had several big problems that were discussed without succesfully solving anything.