V3.0 Inquisimunda Weapons Overhaul

I'm on board with the plan. Have been pressed for time and haven't looked at the specific list, but will comment in more detail when I do.

I actually kind of like the upgrade system. Seems very flexible, not too complicated. For example, I was gonna suggest adding a volleygun profile (basically a lasgun equivalent to the autoslugger) that could cover both the Scion hotshot volleygun and Eldar lasblaster that Hawks use. But I realized that lasgun (or long-las - which I don't see on your table?) + hotshot power pack + multiple barrels handles both just fine.

Also: I realize you don't have armor or other equipment, but you might go ahead and add crusader/suppression shield as a HtH weapon. I think it makes sense to make those available to a wider range of warbands.

Finally: Whether formally or not, I think you've been drafted into taking the lead on the wargear revision, and have done an admirable job so far. No need to keep apologizing!
 
To whoever added the Nailer and Flechette Launcher, thanks for getting involved, and don't take my co-editing there as a put down, I just figured it made sense to explain why I'd initially left them out.

Thanks @tribeof1! I'm happy to expand this to cover grenades and H-t-H, though I'll steer clear of non-weapon-related wargear as I think that should be a separate section and built after this one is in a decent state.
 
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While I like the customisiation options, they have the potential to make some really horrendous combos (much like allowing combi-everything).

I do like them all but may be better to add them later, once we have a working base, as with mentors and super soldiers. I would add toxic to stuff that needs it (liquifier... not sure what else) and just add a "force weapon" profile to the lists.

For now, I would much prefer just using the weapon as what it most looks like for most of the things. e.g.


259px-PhosphorBlastPistol.jpg


Master Crafted Plasma Pistol / Pulse Pistol

309px-PhosphorSerpenta.jpg


Master Crafted Autopistol / Pulse Pistol

288px-PhosphorBlaster.jpg


Heavy Stubber

20110729202437.jpg


Force Weapon

300px-PlasmaCaliver.jpg


Plasma Gun

To whoever added the Nailer and Flechette Launcher, thanks for getting involved, and don't take my co-editing there as a put down, I just figured it made sense to explain why I'd initially left them out.

That was me. Flechette blaster makes sense. Will find Nailer if it kills me (although I have no problem if they just have bolters).
 
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Yeah I like the idea of customisation but it will need quite a bit of work to Ballance properly and as we're overhauling the weapon system I think we're best to get a base of weapon profiles first, we can use the "customisations" to help us built those profiles but then put a set cost so use the example of the volley gun above and apply the xustomisations but set them and cost the whole weapon together to stop crazy combos for now to get the Ballance we're striving for
 
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I like the idea of upgrades. But agree that some options can get insane fast. So I suggest we look at the upgrades initially with a max of. 1 upgrade and basic weapons only. This limits it a lot but still shows the sheer flexibility of the system and will let people see better if they like it.
 
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I like the idea of upgrades. But agree that some options can get insane fast. So I suggest we look at the upgrades initially with a max of. 1 upgrade and basic weapons only. This limits it a lot but still shows the sheer flexibility of the system and will let people see better if they like it.

Happy to go with the flow, but my plan was to restrict any given weapon to one upgrade of each type (just added a column for this, we can split stuff into more upgrade types if we want to prevent or allow combinations) other than ammo, which you can only fire one type of at a time, same as current rules.

I'm not sure it's really necessary if we cost the upgrades sensibly, but for now, lets avoid any Multi-barrelled Fleshbane Combi Direct Drive Melta with Luminagen Bolts and Gun Blades!
 
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Remember from a fluff point of view modification of tech in the imperium is heresy and Xenos races modify there equipment sparingly (except for orks) because they have tested what they have over long century's, the upgrading of weapon in necromunda is limited to ammo types and sights (also one in a million/master crafted) so a upgrade system needs to take all these fluff things into account while also looking at the fact that even the ammo available comes from that present in the fluff and some of the proposed upgrades make little sence on certain weapons types soany upgrade system will be very extensive to write and I'm not sure we need one right now. Don't get me wrong I totally wanna see one in the game at some point but while we're rebasing the game and working on Ballance is it currently necercery and as we have a lot we need todo is it currently a priority would be he two questions I would ask myself
 
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As @Gregor Firedrake touches on above, IMO anything that fits fluff-wise as "ammo" should be a purchasable upgrade. Anything that simply makes a new weapon that isn't in the current list, should be added to the list or just used as something from the list if possible.

e.g.

Add Psybolts as an ammo selection. Possibly make Lumiongen / Rad / Haywire rounds for some weapons if needed.
Apply Toxic rule to any weapon that needs it (Liquifier) and add it to the weapons list. It is sufficiently different to be its own weapon. Also Toxic on a hand flamer should cost more than on a knife so difficult to cost.
Apply Shock to a whip and add it to the list. Again, sufficiently different.
Combi weapon is easy enough to add. Just add "combi" special rule and detail that must add 1-shot other weapon at half cost.
Add double barrelled lasgun thing. Again sufficiently different. Autoslugger with better ammo roll would be a good starting point.

Yes, this does make the weapon list larger but also limits the use of upgrades that may become broken. It also removes upgrades that apply to only one weapon as you may as well have a whole weapon profile in that case.

IMO Upgrades should be stuff that can be added to an already owned weapon (such as ammo), not stuff that must be purchased at the same time as the weapon (such as combi or shock).

While initially I thought condensing the profiles was a good thing, I may have been wrong. It provides better clarity and ease of balance to simply compare weapon profiles without upgrades being a thing. Condensing some profiles makes sense (such as Plasma Caliver being a Plasma Gun) but condensing for the sake of condensing doesn't work as well as I had hoped. I am even starting to have second thoughts about Orks just getting shootas and sluggas, provided they're different to a bolter / bolt pistol and costed appropriately as it provides better clarity for the player.

Having a more clear weapon list also stops funny things happening, such as someone who may be immune fire (for whatever reason) suddenly being immune to Liquifiers as they use flamer rules, or a Jakara with a mirror shield bouncing bullets back because the firer has used plasma gun stats for a projectile weapon.
 
Agreed. It doesn't have to be a one size fits all approach RE condensing and/or using the upgrade rules to build weapons, as long as we don't quibble endlessly about the handful of cases that fall in the middle.
 
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Weapon / Source / NCE? / Possible NCE equivalent?
Hellpistol / 40k and Imunda 2.0 / No / No; same as eldar fusion pistol


hellpistol/gun is a more stable version of laspistol/gun with hotshot laser pack; eldar fusion pistol is more similar to inferno pistol [a kind of melta-pistol].


Okay, this is me looking through craftworld elder & orks for stuff that could be removed. Also know chaos, guard, and tau and they are all looking fine for vehicle only heavy weapons. Hope that helps :)

Wraith cannon (wraithguard only, so likely outside of scope for imudna unless wrathguard are in the elder list, but I don't think they are)
Eldar missile launcher (says it is portable, but no model AFAIK other than grav platforms or vehicle mounted)
Shuriken cannon (same reasoning as elder missile launcher)
Ghost glaive (wrathknight weapon)
Ghost axe & sword (wraithguard weapons, think there is likely enough other power weapons that we don't need their ones too when they arnt in imunda (unless they are?))
Grotzooka (vehicles only)
Skorcha (ork heavy flamer, but vehicle mounted only, can just use normal heavy flamer for inf wielded)
Klaw of gork/mork (stompa mounted only)
Tellyporta blasta (unless we are having mega armoured orks... as it's mounted on them only due to size)


I think we could entirely remove all vehicle weapons for now: when we'll move on vehicle upgrades, we'll think, IMHO.
then, due to the fact a lot of people want the "big guy" in the gang, I think the wraithguard/megarmor could be added.


The shuriken cannon is portable, Death Jester and Dark Reaper exarch, use them. Not sure if that's what people want though. The wichblade, witchstaff and singing spear are all psyker weapons so unless they have drastically different rules to the imperial version, they might be superfluous.

double-agree!


Removed the combi weapon element. I think it's probably easiest to just equip an Ork wit ha 2 handed power weapon and a flamer, then represent it as a Burna, than have a dual profile weapon in the armoury just so the odd Ork can have one.


remember in ][munda you can bring as much weapons as your S value, so I'll retain the combi-weapon rule.
after all, remember: if your flamer explodes, also your combi-power-weapon goes down.


Could alternatively add an easy option for make-your-own "combi weapons".

Buy the most expensive part, get the 2nd part for half price (rounded up to nearest 5TG). Each has separate ammo rolls but counts as one weapon in terms of swapping between fighters etc.

E.g.

Combi Flamer - Flamer 40TG, Bolter 35TG. Cost = 40 + (35/2=17.5 rounded to 20) = 60TG.

Burna - Flamer 40TG, Massive Weapon 10TG. Cost = 40 + (10/2) = 45TG

Deffgun - Heavy Plasma Gun = 240, Heavy Stubber = 120. Cost = 240 + (12/2) = 300TG

Scorpion Claw - Power Fist = 85, Shuriken Pistol = 20?. Cost = 85 + (20/2) = 105TG

Would always count as rare unless specifically on warband list.

Alternatively just stop worrying about what stuff does currently in 40k. Burna never had a melee profile in the olden times, it was just a flamer. What's wrong with just buying your ork a flamer and a separate melee weapon if he wants one?


I'll retain the combi-weapon rule BUT I'll carefully edit a list of rules for combining weapons.
IE:
heavy combi-weapons allowed just for vehicles;
adding a weapon "heavier" than a basic one, it will cost more;
a melee/pistol combi-weapon add an extra hit [with the additional weapon] in HtH;
you can add a one-shot weapon instead of a standard one and it will cost less;
and so on.


Combi darklance + lascannon for 450pts? Yes please! Half the price for the 'lower one' will get abused soon I'm afraid.


same as I wrote above :)


This is fine when combining two ranged weapons, though I think either we should disallow heavy weapons or just have a list of allowed combi-weapons. Combi Heavy Weapons get around the rule that a fighter can only carry a single heavy weapon (NCE p78).

Note that the flexibility is huge if you can just strap a flamer or grenade launcher to anything at 1/2 price. I've had gangs where plenty of fighters had a hand flamer or flamer late in the campaign just for the option. You also haven't specified if the added weapon is one use. I'd be more onboard if either a failed ammo roll took both weapons out of ammo or if the secondary weapon remained 1 shot.

It isn't fine at all for melee/ranged combinations as there's no downside that I can see to combining whatever ranged and melee option you fancy. Just a cost reduction. I'd want any melee/ranged weapon to be 2 handed, not available on pistols and cost a lot.


same as I wrote above AND remember the various limitations about the amount of weapons carriable by a single fighter :)
just let's add a drawback for combi-weapons to rebalance the possibility to carry a lot of weapons: if a single weapon EXPLODES, all the weapon cannot be used for the rest of the game.
and, remember, you can shot properly with a single barrel of the combi-weapon or with both at -1 for both.


While I like the customisiation options, they have the potential to make some really horrendous combos (much like allowing combi-everything).


I think second weapon SHOULDN'T cost half unless it's a one-shot weapon [like the exterminator cartridge is a one-shot hand flamer].


For now, I would much prefer just using the weapon as what it most looks like for most of the things. e.g.


View attachment 10239

Master Crafted Plasma Pistol / Pulse Pistol

View attachment 10238

Master Crafted Autopistol / Pulse Pistol

View attachment 10240

Heavy Stubber

View attachment 10241

Force Weapon

View attachment 10243

Plasma Gun



That was me. Flechette blaster makes sense. Will find Nailer if it kills me (although I have no problem if they just have bolters).

maybe for now we can assimilate similar weapons but, in future, we should add slightly better/different version for adMech/xenos weaponry.
IE: maybe the phosphor serpenta can be a stubgun with "incendiary rounds" but the explosion test is 1 instead of 1-3: a SLIGHTLY better version of the usual stubgun with "incendiary rounds" like the hellgun is a slightly better version of the usual lasgun with hot-shot laser pack.
or the strange admech plasmagun can be a regular plasmagun that re-rolls the dice for "get hot!" and so on.
 
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Apologies if I’m jumping the gun on @spafe ’s plan for getting things going again and/or committing thread necromancy. I’ve had a good read through the weapons/kit spreadsheet and read the last few pages of comments. Overall, I like it, and I like the idea of trying to minimise the number of needlessly unique weapon profiles. I have the following observations, apologies if these have already been covered further back in the thread than I've had time to read.

Plasma pistol getting an extra +1 at short range on high power - doesn't seem fluffy, why would increased power make it more accurate?

Not sure "Musket" is the correct name - I assume we're talking a muzzle loading rifle here (a smoothbore would not have the same range as an Autogun)? If my understanding of the intent of this weapon is correct, then may I suggest a rule along the lines of: "After firing, model most spend either a subsequent Movement or Shooting phase to re-load before that weapon can be fired again." (A little more realistically flexible than move or fire.)

From what I recall, the Ranger Long Rifle is a better analogue of the Needle Rifle than the Sniper Rifle as it currently stands.

Should there be a second class of heavier calibre sniper rifle at Strength 4 (to include the Stalker Boltgun)?

Thinking of the fluff about it firing a hail of shot, should the Ripper Gun get +1 to hit at short range? Maybe also have it count as a club?

Harking back to the era of 2nd Ed, the shuriken catapult was stats-wise, pretty much analogous to the storm bolter (ie 24" range); do we want to maintain the relatively new-fangled reduction in range to 12", or roll it back to the good old days. From a fluff perspective, should the mainstay frontline weapon of the Eldar really only have the range of an SMG, or should it have a range comparable to an Imperial assault rifle?

I can't remember if 2nd Ed ever had rules for axes, which would be a good baseline for the choppa, but based on the options in the table at the moment, I think the club is a better analogue than the knife.

Again, I can't remember what the old 2nd Ed rules said about this, but shouldn't the power axe & sword have a save modifier - maybe -2 to at least have parity with the chainsword. (That said, is -2 a bit much for the chainsword?) Should there be one and 2-handed versions of the power axe?

I'm not sure about the shock maul's aliases, some of which are killing weapons, whereas the shock maul is a less-lethal pacification weapon.

The power fist definitely needs a save modifier of at least -3 (and the thunder hammer ought to be 2-handed).

I'm not particularly familiar with the detailed fluff for the eviscerator, nor its original stats, but the -4 save mod looks somewhat high. It also looks under-costed for its current stats when compared with some of the other melee weapons.

The chainsaw and buzzsaw look somewhat under-costed. Could they be rolled up as aliases? The chainsaw looks like the chainsword (especially if the save mod is dropped to -1). The buzzsaw looks close enough to the eviscerator to combine them (especially if the eviscerator is toned down).

Could the hammer be an alias for the club?

A suggestion for the monomolecular sword, maybe make it -1 save mod rather than +1 strength. To me that would seem more apt for the benefits of such a sharp edge - better at cutting through armour rather than allowing more strength to go into the swing.

The silencer should be an option for the stub gun & sniper rifle as well. Possibly remove it as an option for the autostubber, you tend not to see suppressed MGs.

Do we need a separate base weapon entry for the backpack-powered Hellgun, or do Hotshot magazines suffice?

Maybe give the telescopic Sight -1 at short range?
 
Well that's a nice wake up post and a half dude! some serious feedback and thought here!

I love the enthusiasm... We'll give it a couple of days, see who can check in, I dont actually know how long its been since @4rmless has been online, but if he's been swallowed by the warp... I think we'll organise another 'owner' (I'd suggest make a copy in their own place in case that one drops off), and then start looking into these things.

overall I like some of these comments, (like the hammer being a club), Ripper gun change, Plasma pistol change. I'm not sure if the powerfist needs a save mod though... bearing in mind in combat your str also mods save... meaning a str 4 dude with a x2 str fist hitting at str 8 means thats -5 to saves anyway.

The musket and chainsaw/buzzsaw come from the OCE I believe, meaning they are copy/pastes from there.
 
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Plasma pistol getting an extra +1 at short range on high power - doesn't seem fluffy, why would increased power make it more accurate?

because in the fluff, plasma weapons don't "shot" but "expel a jolt of ionized gas [plasma]" toward the target, so a more focused jolt moves faster so the target dodges harder [so it's easier to hit with].
due to the fact there's not a "dodge" mechanics, this is translated by rules in a bonus/malus to hit.

Not sure "Musket" is the correct name - I assume we're talking a muzzle loading rifle here (a smoothbore would not have the same range as an Autogun)? If my understanding of the intent of this weapon is correct, then may I suggest a rule along the lines of: "After firing, model most spend either a subsequent Movement or Shooting phase to re-load before that weapon can be fired again." (A little more realistically flexible than move or fire.)

I supose this is a simple copy-and-paste; primitive weapons should be treated separately.

From what I recall, the Ranger Long Rifle is a better analogue of the Needle Rifle than the Sniper Rifle as it currently stands.

Should there be a second class of heavier calibre sniper rifle at Strength 4 (to include the Stalker Boltgun)?

in 2nd edition I can remember all sniper but the vindicare operative used to use the needle sniper rifle but I think there should be a lot of weapon ALMOST similar but with small difference: range, bonus/malus to hit, strenght and so on

Thinking of the fluff about it firing a hail of shot, should the Ripper Gun get +1 to hit at short range? Maybe also have it count as a club?

in real life you shoud be right but I think is a balance issue: a lot of shots badly aimed shoud be more or less equal to a single shot from an expert marksman.

Harking back to the era of 2nd Ed, the shuriken catapult was stats-wise, pretty much analogous to the storm bolter (ie 24" range); do we want to maintain the relatively new-fangled reduction in range to 12", or roll it back to the good old days. From a fluff perspective, should the mainstay frontline weapon of the Eldar really only have the range of an SMG, or should it have a range comparable to an Imperial assault rifle?

I think this is another balance issue: the <insert race here> basic weapon cannot be better than <insert another race here> special weapon.
all weapons should be more or less equal per-type-class [a special weapon should be comparable to another special one, not a basic or a heavy], then the single weapon user can be more or less efficent to shot them.

I can't remember if 2nd Ed ever had rules for axes, which would be a good baseline for the choppa, but based on the options in the table at the moment, I think the club is a better analogue than the knife.

in 2nd edition there wasn't rules for "axes" but they could be easily desumed by the ones for power/force/chain axe rules.

Again, I can't remember what the old 2nd Ed rules said about this, but shouldn't the power axe & sword have a save modifier - maybe -2 to at least have parity with the chainsword. (That said, is -2 a bit much for the chainsword?) Should there be one and 2-handed versions of the power axe?

indeed I remember there is the double profile for axe-like weapons. do I remember well?

I'm not sure about the shock maul's aliases, some of which are killing weapons, whereas the shock maul is a less-lethal pacification weapon.

The power fist definitely needs a save modifier of at least -3 (and the thunder hammer ought to be 2-handed).

=][=munda 1.3 had a couple of interesting rules about how to use two-handed weapons as one-handed but they was stat-based [ie. if you've S5 you can use this weapon one-handed] but, maybe, we could translate it as "if your guy's strenght is at least +2 than his basic profile, you can use two-handed weapons as one-handed.

I'm not particularly familiar with the detailed fluff for the eviscerator, nor its original stats, but the -4 save mod looks somewhat high. It also looks under-costed for its current stats when compared with some of the other melee weapons.

the eviscerator was an old necromunda redemptionist-only weapon, then GW translated it into a "two-handed chainfist" [normally used by astartes terminator as an exotic alternative to "ring the doorbell at the door"], so the strange non-linear anti-tank progression.

The chainsaw and buzzsaw look somewhat under-costed. Could they be rolled up as aliases? The chainsaw looks like the chainsword (especially if the save mod is dropped to -1). The buzzsaw looks close enough to the eviscerator to combine them (especially if the eviscerator is toned down).

Could the hammer be an alias for the club?

I think yes: if I remember well, the weapon entry is "mace/club/hammer".
 
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Thanks for the rapid feedback on my comments (I had a very quiet few days at work when I could sneak some serious Inquisimunda thinking in). I had forgotten/was unaware of the melee strength adding a save modifier, I think I ought to actually go back and read the base rules, which I assume are the NCE/OCE to be found in the Vault.

A lot of your feedback makes sense (I like the wielding 2-handed weapons 1-handed option); although I'd argue for the eviscerator to revert to its original incarnation rather than being a 2-handed chainfist & that the Ogryn's BS already accounts for being a bad shot - given that the Ripper gun is a giant shotgun, a +1 at short range would be consistent.
 
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Both good points. I'm wary of adding too many options (hence being a bit sceptical on what the 1/2 handed weilding options brings, but can be convinced).

The ripper gun, I'd be inclined to agree, however I'd also say that it wouldnt be set in stone, if we get to furhter down the road and it works out the ogyrn becomes too powerful, it'd be worth keeping that in mind as an easy switch back to reduce his pwoer.