N18 Van Saar nerf, lower toughness?

TopsyKretts

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I'd agree with Squee and suggest that VS are actually very well balanced on the whole. They're great at shooting, but there are ways to counter that. In particular; they don't have access to any basic or special weapons with range greater than 24" at the start (I've been out-sniped on range by both cawdor and delaque), and there are of course smoke grenades and pitch black; which aren't going to be 100% effective if there are infra-sights or ocular cyberteknika in the mix, but it will usually knock out half of their shooting.

In my mind the reason why Van Saar seem overpowered is because their poor movement is very rarely an issue, because any scenarios that require movement, or capturing objectives, or getting off the other side of the board etc can just as easily be won by standing in place and shooting it out until someone bottles. Until GW realise this and offer some more scenarios that force gangs to get out to objectives and actually move, it'll be up to arbitrators to do something about it. I know that there are some ideas floating around online, but some that stuck out to me are those that restrict loot (win or lose) to only those gangers that actually got out there and grabbed it, or where a scenario expects gangers to get off a particular table edge with loot - make it so that those holding them at the end of the scenario still get the loot (or at least deny it from a victorious gun-line VS gang). Unless it's one of the simpler scenarios, standing behind cover and shooting should not be the way to get the most rewards from the scenario.

In short, force VS to move, get out of cover and play the mission, and you'll realise they aren't all they're cracked up to be.
Comparing to other games, they all have strict definition of board size and amount of turns. Blood Bowl, Kill Team and Underworlds all have this. A fast and fragile "gang" can easily win by out-maneuvering a slower more deadly team.

Underworlds has 3 rounds (3x4 activations).
Blood Bowl has 16 rounds.
Kill team has 4 rounds.

Necromunda has no turn limit and no exact board size. Which makes it near impossible to set limitations. Some exceptions of course, there are some scenarios with defined board sizes and/or round limits, but they are rare.
 
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Sounds like your board setup is more to blame than the gangs, all of the campaigns I've played with/against Van Saar they've not dominated because the scenarios require movement and with plenty of terrain other gangs that have the numbers advantage can force the pace.

Sorry, it just feels like the solutions are for problems that don't exist. A T2 gang would be garbage in a campaign unless you were going to introduce snotlings...
 

spafe

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Out of curiosity, do you play or do you just theory craft?
Out of curiosity, can you actually provide scenarios?*

I play in 2 different campaigns currently, have been playing through new version since it's dropped and have run events for it, so I like to think I meet your threshold for unlocking an answer.

I've seen, maybe 2 scenario that needed movement, and one of those only needed it after we house ruled objective setup.

Mobility is nice in general, but tends to only be needed when out gunned to counter the aforementioned out gunning. So I'm genuinely curious what scenarios actually vastly reward higher moveme

*note I wasn't trying to come across as passive aggressive as this reads when I just read it back, just the exchange above amused me so I thought I'd continue it
 

Stompzilla

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I don't see how movement isn't important? Do you guys all have clear LOS from one board edge to the other and never play Zone Mortalis?
 
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spafe

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I don't see how movement isn't important? Do you guys all have clear LOS from one board edge to the other and never play Zone Mortalis?
No, but that's not the point of contention. Movement is a nice stat, but as long as you are between 4 and 6, it doesn't make much odds to general maneuvering across a board to get into those spots to shoot from.

The question is, what scenarios force you to move a lot for the win condition, whereby the change from 4 to 6 adds up greatly and really matters, because i don't know of many and they have been referenced as a reason why its so important
 
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I'm not going to bother arguing the point, if your games don't involve movement in a meaningful way that's upto the way your groups play.

To say that 50% more distance covered in a move isn't an advantage, then I'm playing the game all kinds of wrong.

In the words of the Dragons Den, I'm out.
 

Stompzilla

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I'm not going to bother arguing the point, if your games don't involve movement in a meaningful way that's upto the way your groups play.

To say that 50% more distance covered in a move isn't an advantage, then I'm playing the game all kinds of wrong.

In the words of the Dragons Den, I'm out.
Agreed. Even if you're playing for the KO, rather than the objective you still need to move to:
A) Shoot first,
B) Get into Melee
C) Get into short range for acc bonus,
D) Get round corners to Shoot
E) Get into good shooting positions,
F) Get into template/grenade range
G) Get to vital choke points first and set up ambushes.
H) Get to doors first - door control is really important.

And obviously the gang with the better movement does all of the above better than the opposition who doesn't move so good.

Movement and the way it is used to maneuver one's gang is the most important aspect of the game. Everything else is just dice.
 

TopsyKretts

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Forgotten Ritches, Gunk Tank, Manufactorum Raid, Escape the Badzone and Takeover are 5 that I've played recently and spring immediately to mind.
Forgotten Riches can be won by camping and shooting the enemy off the table. All remaining loot are automatically gained by the last remaining gang.

Unlike let's say kill team. Or Blood Bowl. Or Underworlds.

Forgotten Riches is scenario nr 3. Gunk Tank is scenario nr 92. Quality improved at this point and Gunk Tank actually requires to move and interact with objectives to win. Great! However the last remaining gang receives D3 Gunk so can still be won by wiping the enemy off the table (before they get more Gunk than the D3 roll). Manufactorum Raid requires the attacker to move min 16" from their deployment to activate bombs. Defenders can disarm them or simply wipe the enemy off the battlefield. So 50/50 on movement requirement. Escape the Badzone has strict requirement on movement to win for both sides. Nice!
 
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TopsyKretts

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Agreed. Even if you're playing for the KO, rather than the objective you still need to move to:
A) Shoot first,
B) Get into Melee
C) Get into short range for acc bonus,
D) Get round corners to Shoot
E) Get into good shooting positions,
F) Get into template/grenade range
G) Get to vital choke points first and set up ambushes.
H) Get to doors first - door control is really important.

And obviously the gang with the better movement does all of the above better than the opposition who doesn't move so good.

Movement and the way it is used to maneuver one's gang is the most important aspect of the game. Everything else is just dice.
If you play to wipe the enemy off the battlefield, you don't need B, C and F. Your gang will be mainly BS2+/3+ and not include melee, grenades or require acc bonuses.
 

Stompzilla

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Bs 3+ becomes 5+ when shooting into hard cover, so you absolutely do need acc bonuses, unless of course you're not using enough terrain.

Likewise the fact that you think you can camp Forgotten Ritches - A Zone Mortalis scenario (You shouldn't even be able to see the loot from your deployment zone, never mind be able to camp them - there should be numerous doors and walls in the way, even after a turn of movement) just goes to prove that your board set up is not right for Necromunda.
 

Stompzilla

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I'm not trying to be snarky, or passive aggressive with these comments. Apologies if that's how it comes off - text isn't a perfect medium for conveying tone .

I have come up against this issue time and time again though on forums and FB. There are 2 schools of thought generally - the movement school and the the shooting school. Time and time again, when you press and dig down into the issue it virtually always comed down to the shooting school not using enough terrain or playing enough ZM - which I think was plainly demonstrated with the replies to my tabletop set-up thread a few weeks back, where people were posting pictures of their table set ups

The movement school, as it were, aren't just argumentative arse holes who don't know how to play properly, they (we) are just using a lot more terrain to (Imo) better represent the closer confines of Hive warfare, hence the fundamental difference in experience.
 

TopsyKretts

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For those replies to be true, you'd have to be playing with not even close to enough terrain/ doors etc.
Now back to enough terrain discussion. I used the sector mechanics stuff from SWA. And supplied with more boxes. Only ro find out it works poorly I would need much more.
32_sm-Necromunda%2C%20Terrain%2C%20Necromunda%2012.jpg
 

TopsyKretts

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I would like a game better if it was not so vulnerable to terrain setup.

You mentioned some scenarios that required movement. True for some, others can be won entirely by aim and shoot. Again, that's virtually impossible in far better balanced games already mentioned.

In kill team I don't even need heavy cover. If my close combat fighters are hiding, they can't be shot at all (some exceptions to counter), or more than 2" behind a building and can't be shit at all.
 
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