N18 Van Saar, Prometheum allies? Lot of questions

Kronor

Juve
Jul 10, 2022
22
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Hello, trying to build a campaign Van Saar list :

Prime (Munitioneer) : Plasma gun, Mesh armor [245]
Augmek (Hip shooting) : Plasma gun, Mesh armor [225]
Augmek (Fixer) : Lasgun, Mesh armor [135]
Neotek : Handflamer, Mesh armor [160]
Neotek : Handflamer, Mesh armor [160]
Subtek : Lasgun [45]
Subtek : Lasgun [45]

So, my early plan is :
- Ally to the prometheum guild for the Scarce rule removal. I took a Fixer Augmek to compensate the D3x10 credits that I will have to pay to the guild after each game.
- Buy a long rifle to the Fixer Augmek and give him Fast shot, because I wanted a sniper and it adds a bit of variety in the list.
- Add a Tek or a Champion with grav gun

I am not sure about the rest of my 10 man roster though :

1. Should I buy more Neotek for more mobility?
2. Should I buy any Tek or focus on Subteks, as they are as good shooters as other gang's gangers, but cheaper, have fast learner and I can acually decide what stat to upgrade instead of relying on random rolls? Do I HAVE to make them champions when they reach 5 upgrades, or can I keep them as gangers?
3. For champions, I don't know what to do...Adding more plasma augmek make sense, but I would have liked to maybe add an Archeotek but I dont really know how to equip him. Close combat, counter-charger?
4. Brute or not brute? Ambot or Arachni-rig?
5. About weapons, are any of the unique Van Saar laser weapons any good? I like the concept of the las carbine and the suppression laser but the fact that they have no AP, and that you can't give them any special ammo or upgrades makes me think "meh"
 
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The only build i really experimented with theoretically is the twin las-sub-carbine on a Leader for early game twin gunz blazing funzies that ignore the rare ammo rules.

But... cant you stick focusing crystals on all of the above? I mean, its a high risk high reward move. Probably works best on stuff that fires only once to cut the risk of OOAH, like a longlas... which correct me if im wrong... is common availability at the trading post and can thus be taken at character creation. It synergises well with van saar and has the 2+ ammo role which in my mind is actually pretty epic.

As per a post i recently saw on here, the munitioneer skill should be paired with some sort of heavy weapon for maximization of potential synergy.
 
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cant you stick focusing crystals on all of the above?
I mean, you can... but you shouldnt. Focusing crystal is a bad upgrade. it doesnt matter what your ammo roll is, if you roll an ammo symbol on the firepower dice, you have a 50 50 chance to ooa yourself, regardless of if you pass the ammo check or not for the weapon. Unstable is really that bad. And I say that as a player who has made all my current orlocks have unstable flaming weapons with a territory for giggles... I've killed so many of my own fighters!
 
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Yeah I am not a fan either of the focusing crystals, way too risky unfortunately. So basically, the van saar special laser weapons are not that good mid-end campaign, that is a shame, I just wish we could put some hotshots on them to keep them revelant end game.
 
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Hotshots are great and the reason lasguns pull far ahead of las carbines by mid campaign. Focusing crystals, unless houseruled somehow, are a trap. The -2 AP isn't nearly worth the unstable rule. That's some Ork-level risk. If you like that kind of playstyle, roll with it, but for me it's a hard pass.
Maybe consider bumping them down to -1 AP and getting rid of unstable?
 
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Now see here, have you considered the suicide juve with mega lasgun (hotshot and focusing crystal) for a s4 -3 shot that hits as well as a ganger? Who cares if he blows up, he's a juve not one of your expensive fighters
 
1. Absolutely not. You have already overdone it. One is enough. I mean, look at the cost of them. Instead of one neotek with hand flamer, you could have three subteks with lasguns, and that is going to be infinitely more useful.
2. There is an argument to be made either way. Teks are better short term, since they start with better stats (ie BS). Subteks, as you point out, can be upgraded as you wish. You should however, always start with one tek, since you get to promote on into a specialist. It would be stupid not to take advantage of that.
3. Adding an archeotek is not a bad thing, but going close combat is. Van Saar don't do close combat. Going that route would be to play into their weaknesses and ignore their strengths.
4. I don't think Van Saar really need a brute, but if you are going to bring one, go with the arachni-rig. Like I said, close combat is not their thing.
5. The suppression laser is decent. It's basically a more reliable (but also more expensive) shotgun that can't take specialty ammo. Las carbines and pistols are kind of garbage. Rad beamer is horribly overpriced.

Bonus tip:
Trick shot is a really good skill. Much, much better than hip shooting. Why would you want to run and gun with a weapon that has a range of 24"?
 
Trick shot is a really good skill.
Trick shot is a good skill but with van saar there are several things that make it worse for them than other gangs, starting with they already hit on 2's so if the opponent is in heavy cover they can aim to still hit on a 3 and that's assuming the have no accuracy modifier.
I'm going to take the hip fire example you gave here, if the shot happens at short range the only time it won't hit on a 2 is if the target is in heavy cover which can be compensated for to still hit on a 2. I see the hip shooting being most used in a situation like this where he needs to get the hell out of dodge without majorly compromising the firepower
They can also just buy an infra sight to go on any weapon with cyberteknika for 50 credits, giving you the cover reduction 12" night sight, ignores smoke and complete immunity to eye injuries alternatively here you can get it for 15 (I think it is) by just buying yourself an archaeotek instead of an augmek if you are buying a champion later in the campaign and can deal with the skill changes etc.
 
Sure, ocular alpha is a substitute for trick shot, but it bloats the gang much more.

Hip shooting is situationally useful, but those situations don't pop up all the time. The occasions where you need to make double moves with Van Saar are rare. Depends on the scenarios being played, though.
 
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Trick Shot is a good skill. However, I tend to lean more towards skills that do something that can't be replicated by a piece of war gear. For shooting skills that means either Hip Shooting to help mitigate snail-like VS movement or Fast Shot, to enable me to double tap with plasma, provided I don't need to move. Of the two, I usually find Hip Shooting the most useful.

If I were taking a shooting skill on a model that didn't already have a built-in 2+ BS, Trick Shot might be a stronger contender.
 
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Thanks for your answers everyone, I am now hesitating between those 2 starting list :

7 bodies [1000]

Prime (Munitioneer) : Plasma gun, Mesh armor [245]
Augmek (Hip shooting) : Plasma gun, Mesh armor [225]
Augmek (Fixer) : Master crafted lasgun with hot shots pack, Mesh armor [160]
Tek Specialist : Grav-gun, Mesh armor [200]
Neotek : Lasgun [80]
Subtek : Lasgun [45]
Subtek : Lasgun [45]

8 bodies [1000]

Prime (Hip shooting) : Lasgun with hot shots pack, Mesh armor [175]
Augmek (Fast shot) : Lasgun with hot shots pack, Mesh armor [155]
Augmek (Fixer) : Lasgun with hot shots pack, Mesh armor [155]
Tek Specialist : Grav-gun [185]
Neotek : Handflamer, Mesh armor [160]
Neotek : Lasgun [80]
Subtek : Lasgun [45]
Subtek : Lasgun [45]

I think I prefer the 2d one, as it has more bodies, more templates, and the hotshot lasgun should be enough to deal with anything at the beginning of a campaign, maybe the plasmas are a bit overkill?

As for the debate Hip shooting or Trick shot, I prefer Hip shooting because I like being able to move faster and fire at the same time, or go away from a potential big melee threat while shooting at him. I always liked the Hit and Run kind of gameplay, so it is just my personal preference.
 
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If I had to pick, I'd chose the first list. Ideally, though, I'd split the difference and adjust the first list in order to get 8 bodies. Maybe ditch the Master Crafting and the Grav Gun to add a second Neotek w/ Lasgun? They do seem to work best in pairs.

Then when you get some credits, buy your Grav Gun, Hand Flamer and get everyone in Mesh Armor.
 
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Something like this? :

Prime (Munitioneer) : Master crafted Plasma gun, Mesh armor [250]
Augmek (Hip shooting) : Plasma gun, Mesh armor [225]
Augmek (Fixer) : Lasgun, Mesh armor [135]
Tek Specialist : Lasgun [75]
Neotek : Handflamer [145]
Neotek : Lasgun [80]
Subtek : Lasgun [45]
Subtek : Lasgun [45]
 
Trick Shot is a good skill. However, I tend to lean more towards skills that do something that can't be replicated by a piece of war gear. For shooting skills that means either Hip Shooting to help mitigate snail-like VS movement or Fast Shot, to enable me to double tap with plasma, provided I don't need to move. Of the two, I usually find Hip Shooting the most useful.
First of all, I would say the cost of the wargear in question is an important factor.

Second, both fast shot and hip shooting are completely worthless if you start your activation pinned. And, presumably, your opponent knows that.
 
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Something like this? :

Prime (Munitioneer) : Master crafted Plasma gun, Mesh armor [250]
Augmek (Hip shooting) : Plasma gun, Mesh armor [225]
Augmek (Fixer) : Lasgun, Mesh armor [135]
Tek Specialist : Lasgun [75]
Neotek : Handflamer [145]
Neotek : Lasgun [80]
Subtek : Lasgun [45]
Subtek : Lasgun [45]
That's a decent list. The first few games are going to be somewhat hard, but you definitely have a solid base to build on. Upgrade your lasguns with hotshots as soon as you can afford it.

I still think two neoteks is one too many, and hand flamer is a slightly overpriced weapon. For 145 creds, you could get something much more valuable into the gang. That being said, if you like setting people on fire, go for it.
 
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Are 2 neotek too many for a starting list, or in general? Because I was planning to have 2 in my roster, to have something like this in my 10 man squad :

Prime
4 Augmek, or 3 augmek and an Arachnirig
1 Tek specialist
2 Neotek
2 Subtek

As for the handflamer, I wonder if giving my Neoteks web pistols when I can afford them from the trading post would not be better in the long run? That would save me a bunch of credits in my starting list.

Maybe something like this :

8 bodies [1000]
Prime (Munitioneer) : Plasma gun, Mesh armor [245]
Augmek (Hip shooting) : Plasma gun, Mesh armor [225]
Augmek (Fixer) : Lasgun with hot shots pack, Mesh armor [155]
Tek Specialist : Lasgun with hot shots pack, Mesh armor [95]
Neotek : Lasgun, Mesh armor [95]
Neotek : Lasgun, Mesh armor [95]
Subtek : Lasgun [45]
Subtek : Lasgun [45]

OR

7 bodies [1000]
Prime (Munitioneer) : Master crafted Plasma gun, Mesh armor [250]
Augmek (Hip shooting) : Plasma gun, Mesh armor [225]
Augmek (Fixer) : Lasgun with hot shots pack, Mesh armor [155]
Tek Specialist : Lasgun with hot shots pack, Mesh armor [95]
Neotek : Lasgun with hot shots pack, Mesh armor [115]
Neotek : Lasgun with hot shots pack, Mesh armor [115]
Subtek : Lasgun [45]
 
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