N18 Van Saar starting roster experiment

Something to bear in mind is that Archeoteks can't do group activations, so with both your champs being Archeoteks your Prime is your only group activator - you may find yourself unable/struggling to pull off some of the tactical plays you need or want to. All that said, I'm always mulling over how to squeeze some cc capability in to a gang - Archeoteks can be perfectly serviceable, just not full on murder machines. I wish there was something passable to be done with gangers without needing a WS upgrade......best I've come to is shield, probably power knife and then maybe a frenzon collar and cross my fingers! But it's a lot of creds sunk in to a model that is only "ok"......I see that as the main issue, nothing wrong with being "ok" in cc, but not for a premium amount of creds.....
I hear you, 200-300 creds is not cheap. But they have long term growth potential. I see three stages of growth: tekno monk, weapons tek, upgrade tek. Also the Flail is the weapon the Archeotek needs, it gives him +1WS and +1S. I playtested my rolls with it and it really helps. Entangle also really harms the enemies response attack. It's the best weapon ive seen, and youll get them for free with Savvy Trader before Game 2. Then use bionics and an experience upgrade for another WS asap.
 
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So one thing I realized is the use of these two Archeotek builds vs. House Goliath:

"Goliath Fighter"
Servo Claw
Laspistol (at start)
Flail (free from Savvy Trader Game 2)
Mesh
Sindextrous Alpha (free)
195credits +(10 Lasgun cr game 2)

Note: This build is specific to House Goliaths vs. Gangers and Forge Bosses.

The servo claw uses adds 1-2 +2 strength attacks for the Tek and allows a swap of the Cyberteknika. Sindextrous is a valuable choice vs. Disarm from Chain axes. An attack is 3+ to wound vs ganger and 4+ vs gene smithed Goliath.

The Flail at 1-2 attacks will help with WS (+3 vs.ganger, (4+ vs Forge Boss), and eliminating counter attacks (-2 to hit).

Upgrade Torsonic Alpha in evolution variation to fight Forge Tyrant making the Servo Claw S7 and the Flail S6.

Focus XP priority: WS, Movement, then Toughness, Random combat skills/attacks
Support with Bionics: WS and M

"Escher/Delacque Fighter" same set up but use Cranial Gamma (+20 credits) at start to resisist wyrd attacks and negate Toxin attacks.
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"Forge Boss/Stimmer Fighter"
2x Flails (free before game 2, savvy trader)
Mesh
Torsonic Gamma (15 cr)
Laspistol
200Credits +(10 lasgun game 2)

The flail hits +3 (vs. ganger) +4(vs. Forge boss) +2(vs. Stimmer) then wounds +2(vs. Ganger) +3 (vs. Dermal hardening)

Upgrade to Sindextrous Alpha @25 credits (when in need of a Bionic also)

Upgrade to Spider rig @ halfway.

Focus XP on above listed order.
Support with bionics +1WS or M

Note: 1 shock stave w/flail variant might be worth vs. gene smithed Forge Tyrant.
 
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https://yaktribe.games/underhive/gang/assault_saars.367633/
If I was aiming to get more up close and personal. The arch and LD act as as centre table push with subteks as cover fire, while two neoteks flank and attempt to flyby hit or charging anyone by a ledge to knockback off with the shields.
Ps yet again archeoteks aren't allowed a lasgun, carbine or suppression las, their house's signature basic weapons at creation...
You can have a pistol or rad beamer, but that's it...
Interesting gear take, increase your Flamer Neotek with +1-2Move and Sprint for 21" board access with a flamer. Upgrade Lasgun Neotek with Flamer on Promotion.

You're right on the Lasgun at start, but Game 2.
 
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Problem with the flail approach is you *need* a versatile melee weapon to compete with Escher/Goliath. Your techno-monks have a threat range of 5-7", Escher Death Maidens can do 7-9" out the gate, Goliath stimmers can do the same with stimm-sluggs so the only way your going to get a charge off on them first is by extending your threat range, which means loading up on versatile weapons
 
Problem with the flail approach is you *need* a versatile melee weapon to compete with Escher/Goliath. Your techno-monks have a threat range of 5-7", Escher Death Maidens can do 7-9" out the gate, Goliath stimmers can do the same with stimm-sluggs so the only way your going to get a charge off on them first is by extending your threat range, which means loading up on versatile weapons
Right, i understand the value of Versatile 3" now. 4" move becomes, 4"+d3+3" being 8-11" inches. Then 10-13" with movements upgrades from bionics or experience. This also adds to how powerful the Spider Rig is with Versatile and Shock traits.

You then add the Cyber-spider pet for "fearless" after game1 or game 2.

I practice rolled against Maidens and Stimmers and their high WS is a problem. The only other option is I have to try and use my 2x plasma guns to stop them first and then use an Archeotek to clean up the gangers.
 
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Something to bear in mind is that Archeoteks can't do group activations, so with both your champs being Archeoteks your Prime is your only group activator - you may find yourself unable/struggling to pull off some of the tactical plays you need or want to. All that said, I'm always mulling over how to squeeze some cc capability in to a gang - Archeoteks can be perfectly serviceable, just not full on murder machines. I wish there was something passable to be done with gangers without needing a WS upgrade......best I've come to is shield, probably power knife and then maybe a frenzon collar and cross my fingers! But it's a lot of creds sunk in to a model that is only "ok"......I see that as the main issue, nothing wrong with being "ok" in cc, but not for a premium amount of creds.....
So Im still reading on group activations. Archeteks dont have it because they dont have the Leader trait correct?

One thing i was thinking of doing instead to counter act this maybe, is to use my Prime like an Archeotek instead, and opt to run an Augmek, and one CC Archeotek.

Prime:
2 servo claws
Mesh
Las carbine
Mentor
=225 credits

Augmek:
Plasma gun
Mesh
=225 credits

Tekno Monk:
Mesh
Torsonic Gamma
Laspistol
=165 credits

Note: by using two leaders, this might be able to pair the Prime with Archeotek for CC activation combos. The Augmek to use activations to adress his flank. Also a servo claw could be given to the Tekno Monk game 2, and provide a flail each. The Prime will pay full price for Torsonic Gamma or other cyberteknika though.
 
Conventional wisdom is keep your leader clear of melee if you can, as a leader is the only model you can't replace if they die (unless you use a certain set of optional rules from White Dwarf)

That tends to be the advice people provide even for gangs whose leaders are actually good at melee (Escher and Goliath for example)

I'm not always in agreement with that, I always think you should build to a units strengths, however in the case of Van Saar I think keeping your leader out of melee is very sound advice.

On a tangential note, how are you mitigating against pinning on your techno-monks?
 
Conventional wisdom is keep your leader clear of melee if you can, as a leader is the only model you can't replace if they die (unless you use a certain set of optional rules from White Dwarf)

That tends to be the advice people provide even for gangs whose leaders are actually good at melee (Escher and Goliath for example)

I'm not always in agreement with that, I always think you should build to a units strengths, however in the case of Van Saar I think keeping your leader out of melee is very sound advice.

On a tangential note, how are you mitigating against pinning on your techno-monks?
I haven't read the rules on leader death, but I look at the Prime's injuries as a great motivator for discount Bionics. The mentor ability might reward the Archeotek neadby as well. In addition the Prime has a las carbine which im sure will be put to good use.

I don't have an answer for pinning other than trying to have the gang work in groups of 3's with at least 1 Subtek out front. And hoping I outshoot if they want try. So left and right have a plasmagun, 2 lasguns each, and then CC up the middle.
 
I haven't read the rules on leader death, but I look at the Prime's injuries as a great motivator for discount Bionics. The mentor ability might reward the Archeotek neadby as well. In addition the Prime has a las carbine which im sure will be put to good use.

I don't have an answer for pinning other than trying to have the gang work in groups of 3's with at least 1 Subtek out front. And hoping I outshoot if they want try. So left and right have a plasmagun, 2 lasguns each, and then CC up the middle.
Bear in mind, only the Archeotek gets discount bionics (cybertechnika) for themselves, everyone else pays full list price for cybertechnika
 
Bear in mind, only the Archeotek gets discount bionics (cybertechnika) for themselves, everyone else pays full list price for cybertechnika
Yes, that's correct on Cyberteknika with Archeoteks. But what I mean for the Prime, is not cyberteknika, but Savvy Trader and Tek Merchant discount Bionics from the Trading Post. The more an enemy gang hurts my CC units without killing them the stronger they return.
 
Yes, that's correct on Cyberteknika with Archeoteks. But what I mean for the Prime, is not cyberteknika, but Savvy Trader and Tek Merchant discount Bionics from the Trading Post. The more an enemy gang hurts my CC units without killing them the stronger they return.
While being able to massively discount conventional bionics isn't a bad thing, they will never return stronger than they were initially. Bionics can only mitigate an injury and can be destroyed when hit again, which applies a net 2 swing in a negative way on that stat iirc for how they are destroyed.

Meanwhile for a slight price bump alpha level cyberteknika does make you come back stronger and instead of boosting a damaged stat it outright erases the injury as if it never happened. On top of that it prevents the same area from taking a stat penalty ever again, as well as providing a boost depending on the type of body part you replaced, though this can be disabled requiring a repair when hit again.
 
While being able to massively discount conventional bionics isn't a bad thing, they will never return stronger than they were initially. Bionics can only mitigate an injury and can be destroyed when hit again, which applies a net 2 swing in a negative way on that stat iirc for how they are destroyed.

Meanwhile for a slight price bump alpha level cyberteknika does make you come back stronger and instead of boosting a damaged stat it outright erases the injury as if it never happened. On top of that it prevents the same area from taking a stat penalty ever again, as well as providing a boost depending on the type of body part you replaced, though this can be disabled requiring a repair when hit again.
Ive got
While being able to massively discount conventional bionics isn't a bad thing, they will never return stronger than they were initially. Bionics can only mitigate an injury and can be destroyed when hit again, which applies a net 2 swing in a negative way on that stat iirc for how they are destroyed.

Meanwhile for a slight price bump alpha level cyberteknika does make you come back stronger and instead of boosting a damaged stat it outright erases the injury as if it never happened. On top of that it prevents the same area from taking a stat penalty ever again, as well as providing a boost depending on the type of body part you replaced, though this can be disabled requiring a repair when hit again.
I have gotten into this discussion on anither YT channel, ill just repost:

"So I could see an arbitrator deciding to play it either way through theme.

1/ the campaign then could be low grade cybernetics that would hurt Van Saars potential. Just replacing function.

2/ advanced grade clean bionics that negate and then enhance the injury, which would make Van Saar a powerhouse. Especially with 3x Savvy Trader and a tech merchant. Which would make all bionics 7+ or common at -20 credits from the Trading Post. You should be able to acquire 3-4 cybernetics at about 5-25 credits a pop.

I suggest that bionics enhance because in the Trading Post wording states:
Bionic Arm
"A good bionic arm is another weapon in its user's arsenal, able to BOTH replace the function of an arm but ALSO act as a handy club."

So, to my interpretation, it replaces the injury and enhances. In addition, a club in Oldmunda gave +1S in CC, so their wording mentions club, and the arm stat is +1S. It fits.

This would have a Bionic arm, Torsonic Gamma, holding a flail, @ strength 7. Use a Servo claw and it's Strength 8.

In addition a decision should be made for Van Saar on whether or not they can use bionics with no existing injury. Like self mutilation/enhancement similar to a Tek Priest. To me, the rules say you use bionics after an injury. But this varies to Cybertechnika because Van Saar can install it at any time.

Thirdly, stat adding bionics should count towards a models maximum stats. So 2 bionic legs and your ganger cant get a third M from the experience table. So either use bionics, Experience, or a little of both. An Archeotek should max at 6" move.

Fourthly, if a player installs Sindextrous Alpha while fighting House Goliath chain axes, this should occupy one potential arm upgrade of his two choices. The other right hand could then only go for +1 WS after injury, then using Exp. to nab that other +1 WS.

Same would apply to the legs with 2 bionics or 1 bionic and1 cyberteknika.

I think bionics really adds to the fluff of Van Saar and could help with their low move and WS."
 
Bionics just fix the injury in this edition, first ed gave you a boost, only cyberteknika will add to your abilities, that's why it's a van Saar speciality...

Also a lot of the things you are saying stack, do not stack....
 
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Bionics just fix the injury in this edition, first ed gave you a boost, only cyberteknika will add to your abilities, that's why it's a van Saar speciality...

Also a lot of the things you are saying stack, do not stack....
Do you know if Games Workshop has said anything on this? I feel like the opening pparagraph to bionics may not enhance but when you then read individual descriptions it kind of does, ex. The bionic arm.

For example, why would the Bionic Arm state: "remove the effects of a lasting injury", and then not display +1 stats?

What do you feel ive said that doesn't stack?
 
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The stacking of standard bionics for stat boosts, stacking trade skills to creat free items even when they state a minimum figure this can be reduced too.

This game is supposed to be played as the worst case scenario for things to be played as rather than the best, hence why a lot of the gear that gives buffs etc, give unstable or reckless for example.
 
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The stacking of standard bionics for stat boosts, stacking trade skills to creat free items even when they state a minimum figure this can be reduced too.

This game is supposed to be played as the worst case scenario for things to be played as rather than the best, hence why a lot of the gear that gives buffs etc, give unstable or reckless for example.
Right, you're arguing that standard Bionics only repair not remove/enhance the fighter. I wonder if GW would rule on that in an email.

I've tried to look around for a minimum purchase requirement using Savvy Trader. I can't find it. When I write the "2x savvy trader" means two seperate champions have Savvy Trader, using two seperate visits. I could see how that is misleading when communicate. So a flail should be free @ 20 credits on one visit.