N18 Van Saar versus Flesh Grinders - Bar Brawl....not cool....

Wakrob

New Member
Nov 9, 2019
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First game of our new Dominion campaign my Van Saar (Make Hive Great Again) faced the Flesh Grinder gang.

SO......no guns or grenades on two tiles. Leaves me with no weapons other than my Leader's Power Knife/Servo-Claw who is both intoxicated and randomly gets my Subplot of Assassination Target giving him a 6+ WS.

Flesh bastards win priority and first one charges for 6 attacks at 2+ to hit (even after drunk), 2 damage per hit plus Server for auto-kill shots.

I ran into corner behind some NPC patrons and voluntarily bottled turn 2. Not fun.

Wakrob
 

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Ganger
Jan 11, 2019
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First question: What did you expect?
A Bar Brawl scenario is guaranteed to be a one-sided game if only one of the gangs is CGC. That's pretty much a no-brainer.

Second question: Who came up with the bright idea to not only start a campaign with an obscure and unbalanced scenario from a minor expansion, but also to pick the most poorly matched gangs for it?
If that was your arbitrator, then I would politely ask them to hand over the role to somebody else...
 

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Ganger
Jan 11, 2019
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Would be better to drop the arbitrator. Let the players who play the game decide what is best, not someone else who doesn't even play.
Well I can honestly see how an arbitrator might be good for the game, but that's highly dependent on your group's preference. Some groups are perfectly fine with an arbitrator and have a willing person who does the job. But that's most definitely not the case for every group.

I personally also think that a PvP game should be playable without any 3rd party, at least to a certain degree of competitiveness. And that's definitely not the case with N18 RAW, but that's a discussion for another topic...
 
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TopsyKretts

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Kristiansand
Even if this is a white dwarf scenario, it still sucks that it doesn't work in all cases. On the other hand, it would be nice to have this scenario to punish van saar after playing many missions on a large sector mechanicus battlefield.
 

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Ganger
Jan 11, 2019
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Even if this is a white dwarf scenario, it still sucks that it doesn't work in all cases. On the other hand, it would be nice to have this scenario to punish van saar after playing many missions on a large sector mechanicus battlefield.
Well, again, that would require an arbitrator to impose the scenario on said VS gang. In the absence of one, I don't really think many VS players would agree to a Bar Brawl, although some definitely might.
Then again, from my admittedly limited experience with VS, I'd say they are way overestimated. On a 4'x4' SM board they tend to be a really tough gang to face true, but on smaller 3'x3' SM boards their reduced numbers start to hurt them and the games tend to be more balanced and dynamic overall. In ZM they can't really leverage their full firepower and are likewise not at all the OP gang that everybody tends to think they are.
 
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TopsyKretts

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Nothing in this game requires an arbitrator. Everything in this game can be discussed and decided between a group of friends. Just like any other game I've played. The whole notion of having an arbitrator is alien to me. Where does this come from? Role playing games? I've played a variety of miniature games since the late 90s, and I have never stumbled across the need or even mention of arbitrator!

Play games like GorkaMorka, Mordheim, Battlefleet Gothic, Warmachine & Hordes, all previous editions of Necromunda, 40k, warhammer fantasy, space hulk ++. Never even heard about "arbitrator" for miniature game before!

Blood Bowl 2016 is one exception, which mention using a "commisionary" for league play. I always thought this was one of the silly rules so we simply dropped it. Not sure if older BB editions mentioned or "required" this, all I can remember is I never heard or seen any for all games I played.
 

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Ganger
Jan 11, 2019
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My point was that a VS player might just refuse to play Bar Brawl outright, and barring the presence of an agreed upon Arbitrator, nothing can force them to play it. It's possible to convince them to try, but not everyone would agree here.

And as for where the concept of an Arbitrator comes from - my take is that it's basically a GM from a tabletop RPG. And in N18 RAW such a person is virtually necessary to adjudicate the multitude of questionable situations that arise when playing broken scenarios written by GW (which is most of scenarios, quite frankly), not to mention other rules, which are likewise not at all clear-cut or even working RAW at times. But like I already mentioned before, this is a discussion for another place.
 

Fold

Gang Hero
Oct 26, 2013
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fromthewastes.com
Nothing in this game requires an arbitrator. Everything in this game can be discussed and decided between a group of friends. Just like any other game I've played. The whole notion of having an arbitrator is alien to me. Where does this come from? Role playing games? I've played a variety of miniature games since the late 90s, and I have never stumbled across the need or even mention of arbitrator!

Play games like GorkaMorka, Mordheim, Battlefleet Gothic, Warmachine & Hordes, all previous editions of Necromunda, 40k, warhammer fantasy, space hulk ++. Never even heard about "arbitrator" for miniature game before!

Blood Bowl 2016 is one exception, which mention using a "commisionary" for league play. I always thought this was one of the silly rules so we simply dropped it. Not sure if older BB editions mentioned or "required" this, all I can remember is I never heard or seen any for all games I played.
A commissioner has been part of the BB league environment for a very long time. Tbh I’m not sure how you would run a big league without one? Their function is not to arbitrate rules but organise fixtures, update league tables and make sure everyone is doing what they’re supposed to do. In any league someone has to do it.

A similar function is done by the necromunda arbitrators of all the campaigns I know about.
 

TopsyKretts

Hive Guilder
Dec 29, 2017
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Kristiansand
We can continue discussion here:
 

Scabs

Ganger
Feb 4, 2014
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San Diego. CA, USA
First game of our new Dominion campaign my Van Saar (Make Hive Great Again) faced the Flesh Grinder gang.

SO......no guns or grenades on two tiles. Leaves me with no weapons other than my Leader's Power Knife/Servo-Claw who is both intoxicated and randomly gets my Subplot of Assassination Target giving him a 6+ WS.

Flesh bastards win priority and first one charges for 6 attacks at 2+ to hit (even after drunk), 2 damage per hit plus Server for auto-kill shots.

I ran into corner behind some NPC patrons and voluntarily bottled turn 2. Not fun.

Wakrob
Are you a Newb? Are you really this innocent? Does Van Saar have a sterling reputation in your group? Or, have you and/or Van Saar gang(s) left a trail of destruction and hard feelings in previous campaigns? Because, this scenario is kinda a hit job. Unarmed Van Saar vs the best H2H fighters in the game? Yikes!

OK, I'm kidding. Or, am I?

The scenario looks like fun, within reason. If it's one from the WD supplement, those are small scenarios with limited fighters, and for specific occasions (lunchtime quickie, gang(s) with many fighters in Recovery, first date, etc.). Not my first choice for the start of a campaign, unless any of the previous examples apply. For that matter, some of those other WD scenarios in the supplement are more balanced. But, these are NOT for the first game in a Dominion campaign.

Unless someone has an agenda. :cautious:
 
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Mar 6, 2018
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Tübingen, Deutschland
As has been said, the Necromunda gang raids are a game expansion. Intended for quick games in between.

Either both players agree, or, I quote: "in a guided campaign, the arbitrator can decide that one of these scenarios should be used when a player is particularly at a disadvantage from injury". - I don't know what the arbitrator was thinking and I don't know your groups history either. CGC against VS in Bar Brawl and at the start of a new Dominion campaign therefore seems unfair and wrong to me.

A legitimate reason to start with this scenario would be for me if you wanted to tell a certain story. For example, that the bar brawl is the reason for a beginning hostility and all further fighting. Then it is also up to the arbitrator to plan the next scenario accordingly.

It is easy to imagine how other Van Saar members react to such a defeat, get angry, drum up friends and allies and want to take revenge. That should be reflected in the next arbitrated scenario. For example through a rage bonus, special ambush, reinforcements, or the like.
 

Scabs

Ganger
Feb 4, 2014
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San Diego. CA, USA
Yeah. That little pack of four adorable little scenarios all look fun (in context). We played the first one, as a one-off. Three gangers trying to get off the opponent's edge before reinforcements arrive. Adorable!
 
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Jumbley

Black And White Son Of A Gun
Honored Tribesman
Sep 5, 2019
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Bar Fight is great fun if you add in more than 2 gangs - we played one as a 3-player brawl and it got really crazy, really fast!

Highlight of the match was the entire Van Saar crew struggling to bring down the last man standing; one belligerently-drunk Enforcer, who refused to stop being drunk and bottle out with the rest of his gang for something like 5 turns, before they finally got him to the ground and, considering the Eye Injury he sustained, gave him a solid face-stomping.
 

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Ganger
Jan 11, 2019
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Bar Fight is great fun if you add in more than 2 gangs - we played one as a 3-player brawl and it got really crazy, really fast!

Highlight of the match was the entire Van Saar crew struggling to bring down the last man standing; one belligerently-drunk Enforcer, who refused to stop being drunk and bottle out with the rest of his gang for something like 5 turns, before they finally got him to the ground and, considering the Eye Injury he sustained, gave him a solid face-stomping.
That IS fun, if maybe a little bit annoying for the Enfercer player, but I bet he had a good laugh out of it. Plus the crazy Constable One-Eye most likely became local legend.
The original post is nothing like that, however.
 
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Scabs

Ganger
Feb 4, 2014
141
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San Diego. CA, USA
All rightie then...played my first game with my brand new Corpse Grinder Cult last night. So, I've actually seen CGC in action. WTF!!!

OP was required to play his Van Saar vs CGC in a bar? I highly recommend the OP check under his car before leaving on game night. 'Cause something ain't right.
 

Scabs

Ganger
Feb 4, 2014
141
177
43
San Diego. CA, USA
First game of our new Dominion campaign my Van Saar (Make Hive Great Again) faced the Flesh Grinder gang.

SO......no guns or grenades on two tiles. Leaves me with no weapons other than my Leader's Power Knife/Servo-Claw who is both intoxicated and randomly gets my Subplot of Assassination Target giving him a 6+ WS.

Flesh bastards win priority and first one charges for 6 attacks at 2+ to hit (even after drunk), 2 damage per hit plus Server for auto-kill shots.

I ran into corner behind some NPC patrons and voluntarily bottled turn 2. Not fun.

Wakrob
We're laughing at you, not with you. And it ain't about you. Van Saar can be hard to love. And, the idea of unarmed Van Saar going toe-to-toe with Corpse Grinders is the stuff of legends. You'll be telling your grand-kids about this one.

And, they will be laughing at you, not with you.
 
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Ganger
Jan 11, 2019
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To be honest, I think all Van Saar gangs should have their first fight in a bar brawl against corpse grinder cult.
Nobody should have their first game be a Bar Brawl with Corpsegrinders, this is so one-sided it's not even funny.

Then I don't really get why you hate on VS so much. They are unbalanced, don't get me wrong, but not to a degree, that you force them to play night impossible missions or up their cost by 20 per ganger. Not in a game that also has Goliaths, Venators or CGC as a possible option.