Necromunda venators access

spafe

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@Malo , Can you give access to venators for all pets. I can add the pet (stats with a cost of 0) but cannot add the pet to the owner to give the cost. Caryatids are there, but no others. I am guessing its because they are currently only unlocked by the specific gang, so is it possible to unlock them all with their specific gang and venators?

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Malo

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@Malo , Can you give access to venators for all pets. I can add the pet (stats with a cost of 0) but cannot add the pet to the owner to give the cost. Caryatids are there, but no others. I am guessing its because they are currently only unlocked by the specific gang, so is it possible to unlock them all with their specific gang and venators?
They should unlock once a fighter is given the specific House Legacy?
 

spafe

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Malo

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FYI I discovered why it's not available in the ganger editor. Those status items have a rarity rating too high for a Venator to purchase, therefore they don't appear. If I lower the rarity value, they appear in the equipment.

The problem is they need to be available in the Trading Post to purchase, which they're not. So I'm figuring out the most efficient way to handle multiple gang types for generating Trading Post equipment lists.
 
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spafe

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If I lower the rarity value, they appear in the equipment.
Why leave the rarity restriction in for them though, after gang creation they can take any rarity value like regular gangs. Also if I turn the weapons restrictions off in settings, it then must be leaving the rarity restrictions in effect for venators, which doesnt sound right
 

Malo

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Why leave the rarity restriction in for them though, after gang creation they can take any rarity value like regular gangs. Also if I turn the weapons restrictions off in settings, it then must be leaving the rarity restrictions in effect for venators, which doesnt sound right
I had missed that part, I was treating their rarity restriction like a house list. I'll remove the restricted then, that should solve the issue.
 
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spafe

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I don't know, I suppose they do always ahve that access, but for the sake of the tools it might be easier to ignore.
 

Thorgor

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The rarity thing only applies to the equipment that is purchased alongside the fighter. This has been made a bit clearer in The Book of Peril (it now reads "When hired they may choose Common equipment, and Rare equipment with a Rarity value up to and including <rarity>, from the Trading post". It's actually a permission and not a restriction: in essence you get a free rarity roll of <rarity> that you can use as long as what you purchase comes equipped to the fighter. It doesn't restrict the rarity of equipment that can later be given to the fighter from the gang's stash.

What is unclear is how it interacts (or doesn't) with house legacies and house pets.
Logically, house legacies can also only be used (and purchased) when the fighter is hired, as it's the only time you get to purchase equipment specifically for them (when the gang visits the Trading post, the equipment you purchase goes to the gang stash, no a specific fighter).
House legacy gives the fighter permission to purchase the corresponding house pet, but does it also let you bypass its rarity? If it doesn't then no Venator can have a Phyrr Cat or Sheen bird as a pet, and only a leader can have a Spekter or Sumpkroc (unfortunately, a leader with Sumpkroc is exactly the example they went for, so it doesn't help at all)
 

Malo

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The intent is to obviously allow Venators access to any rarity after the first game. Status pets can only be purchased after the first game (your first visit to a trading Post and pets aren't on the house lists). I get what you're saying about equipment being purchased goes to stash and technically not by a specific ganger but the only Venators that can get these pets are the Leader and Champion which are the ones that visit the Trading Post anyway so we can let that one slide?
 
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Thorgor

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Status pets can only be purchased after the first game (your first visit to a trading Post and pets aren't on the house lists)
Venators can get rare items from the TP when hired (up to a rarity of 11 for a leader, 10 for a champ and 8 for a hunter) and a house legacy let you purchase the corresponding house pet. That means having a leader with Goliath house legacy and a Sumpkroc (rare 11) in your starting gang is legal.
What is unclear is whether having a leader with rare 12 pet (or a champ with rare 11+ pet) is supposed to be possible or not. Does the permission granted by the house legacy bypass rarity restrictions?

I get what you're saying about equipment being purchased goes to stash and technically not by a specific ganger but the only Venators that can get these pets are the Leader and Champion which are the ones that visit the Trading Post anyway so we can let that one slide?
I'd say the problem is that it may lead to some cheesy exploits.
If having a leader with Goliath house legacy means you can purchase a Sumpkroc from the TP and then give it to him, then what stops you from giving it to a champion without any house legacy? One might protest that there is an unwritten rule that states a fighter needs the corresponding house legacy to equip a house-specific item and that would be fine (except for the fact that it's not written anywhere), but then what about a Escher legacy ganger providing cheap lasguns to the whole gang? Once into the gang stash those lasguns should become indistinguishable from any other (more expensive) lasguns, so it this legal?
To be fair the problem also exists even if you limit the purchase of house-specific stuff to items bought alongside the fighter, as wargear can easily go from a fighter to the stash. Even weapons can go to the stash when the fighter dies or leaves the gang.

Anyway, I don't think it changes much as far as the tools are concerned. It's just that house legacy rules are still confusing as hell despite having been rewritten once.
 
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spafe

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It's just that house legacy rules are still confusing as hell despite having been rewritten once.
I get what you are meaning, and I do agree, but tbh pretty much all of the above (and a few other issues with venators) are solved with the standard 'don't be a dick' rule that operates over all necromunda campaigns I've ever played in.

Where rules elsewhere are geuinenly unclear how they are meant to work/grey areas, yeah N18 has too many of them to be acceptable, most of the venator stuff however does seem to resolve if the owner just uses a bit of self restraint on the 'being a dick' side of stuff. Just my 2 creds on it (prior to having coffee)
 

Thorgor

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I get what you are saying @spafe, but I have to disagree. "Don't be a dick" solves nothing when one person's dickish exploit is another person's clever optimisation. Players have diverging opinions on what is fair, and it comes up practically every time tactics or loadouts are discussed.
That's why games have rules, because they are the same for everyone (or at least they should be, and that's why writers should stay away from ambiguous syntax and leave nothing to interpretation.)

As far as the Venator's house legacies are concerned, there are quite a few different interpretations I can think of that I would be equally ok with as long as they apply the same to every venator gang.
If I had to hazard a guess as to what the intent was based on the fluff, I'd say that we are missing the three following rules:
  • A house legacy can only be purchased for a fighter at the moment the fighter is hired
  • If you have a fighter with a house legacy in your gang when the gang visits the trading post and that fighter is not currently captured or in recovery (or dead, or critically injured), then all items from the corresponding house equipment list are added as common items to the trading post. Additionally, you can purchase rare items specific to that house (such as exotic beasts) and benefit from rarity reductions specific to that house (for instance, if you have a fighter with Orlock house legacy in your gang, the Mining laser counts as Rare (8) instead of Rare (9))
  • House specific items (such as the 'Krumper' rivet cannon or the Sumpkroc) can only be equipped by fighters with the corresponding house legacy.
(and yes it would allow a single ex-Escher girl to provide cheap lasguns to the entire gang)

However, I'm treading into house-rule territory with those rules. If I were to base my interpretation on the rules as they are written while completely ignoring the fluff, it would be quite different.
 
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Malo

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To make things easier and until I'm able to integrate house legacy into Trading Post, I've removed the max rarity limit for Venator equipment in the ganger editor.
 
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spafe

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To make things easier and until I'm able to integrate house legacy into Trading Post, I've removed the max rarity limit for Venator equipment in the ganger editor.
Sorry mate, might be being stupid, but i still can't seem to find a pyrhh cat for my escher legacy venator boss (the one i linked in earlier post)
 

Malo

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Sorry mate, might be being stupid, but i still can't seem to find a pyrhh cat for my escher legacy venator boss (the one i linked in earlier post)
I can see it available to your fighter. Are you looking in the ganger editor and not the trading Post? Is equipment restriction on?
 

spafe

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I've made sure settings had restrict equipment 'off', these are a prnt screen of status items (where the caryatid is), and equipment (where giant rat is), neither have a cat (I've assumed pyrhh cat will be after plasma grenades).

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