Venators: An Embarrassment of Riches

[pangolin]

I realize this may seem too vague or that I'm asking others to do work for me, but I'm genuinely paralyzed with indecision. I'm trying to make a venator gang for a campaign and I'm not sure what is a good boys vs. toys balance is for them. On the one hand they actually have remarkably cheep guys starting out, but can take some of the most expensive options. Most of my experience with games like this comes from shadow war, but I realize there are some key differences, like how pinning seems less important compared to wounding or bottling happen at a number of people instead of a percentage of the overall gang size.

I realize that there is no magic right answer, but if people have opinions on a few questions I would love to hear them.
1. How many members is a reasonable range?
2. What is a decent weapon choice for the ganger equivalent: bolters look amazing but are obviously way more expensive and have bad ammo stats
3. Are any of the melee focused profiles worth it, they seem to be like worse versions of either escher or goliath?
4.Are the heavy bolters/stubbers worth the investment starting out, or is it too much?
5. How much of a factor is armor/ how important is it to spend credits on it?

 

[Cpt. Boriel]

I realize this may seem too vague or that I'm asking others to do work for me, but I'm genuinely paralyzed with indecision. I'm trying to make a venator gang for a campaign and I'm not sure what is a good boys vs. toys balance is for them. On the one hand they actually have remarkably cheep guys starting out, but can take some of the most expensive options. Most of my experience with games like this comes from shadow war, but I realize there are some key differences, like how pinning seems less important compared to wounding or bottling happen at a number of people instead of a percentage of the overall gang size.

I realize that there is no magic right answer, but if people have opinions on a few questions I would love to hear them.
1. How many members is a reasonable range?
2. What is a decent weapon choice for the ganger equivalent: bolters look amazing but are obviously way more expensive and have bad ammo stats
3. Are any of the melee focused profiles worth it, they seem to be like worse versions of either escher or goliath?
4.Are the heavy bolters/stubbers worth the investment starting out, or is it too much?
5. How much of a factor is armor/ how important is it to spend credits on it?

I haven’t read the till venator rules. The heavy bolter with suspensors feels like a trap to me with ...click around. I wouldn’t run any scarce weapons personally. Heavy stubber is okay, and maybe a couple bolt weapons to spread the Click hate. From posted lists I’d expect no move than 6-7 models to start. Cuz you still have to take advantage of the rare availability. Hot shot lasguns and longlas look very appealing off the bat though

 

[Whiysper]

I went with 6.
One leader (shooty) with a plasma cannon, suspensors, Mesh, Undersuit, Van Saar Legacy and Overwatch.
One Champion (Goliath-y) with a Thunder Hammer, mesh, Stimms, and Infiltrate.
One Chmpion (Esher-y) with Esher legacy, Hand Flamer, Stiletto Sword, Mesh, Energy Shield, and Infiltrate.
then 3 shooting gangers with 5C Esher Lasguns.

People either flee the cannon into the melee contingent, or vice versa. The basic Hunters are 3+ shots, or 2+ at 18", so they live to Pin.

Yeah, eventually going to upgun with bolters on the Hunters, but out the gate, that worked a treat for me. Infiltrating two champions to melee range, then group activating them and either flaming bunched-up troops and charging something precious with the Hammer, or getting both into melee. Obviously a touch of Hero-Hammer, but it works. We're also house-ruling heavy weapons down to 1+1/10 Rep, which means just spamming plasma/melta cannons isn't an option (it would be a very boring one, anyway!)

Hope that helps. I know it helped me - but not anyone else in the campaign . Remember that measuring distances counts closed doors as walls, so you can be right behind a door in their deployment, if they screw up . Group activate, open door>flame, and then charge with the Hammernator. He draws all the fire, obviously.

Edit:
Oh, and if you want to see how it's shaken up after a few games:
https://yaktribe.games/underhive/gang/the_forsaken.15429/

 

[TopsyKretts]

On the one hand they actually have remarkably cheep guys starting out, but can take some of the most expensive options.

In my view, they are ridiculously expensive. Compare the ganger with standard human stats at 55 credits to the chaos ganger at 35 credits. Almost identical, but costs 20 credits more.

Edit: Noticed they are only 45 credits, so not that bad after all.

 

[Thorgor]

I still need to wrap my head around Venators as they are not as 'easy' to understand as the other gang (lots option here), but, still, a few thoughts for now:

I think there are two ways to tackle a Venator gang: either you have a theme in mind (Enforcers, Ash Wastes nomad, deserters from the PDF...) and try to use the Venator framework to give it life, or you go all-out and minmax the heck out of the list. Most people will tell you the first one is the way to go, but I'm not most people

You can (and should) abuse house legacies: escher legacy means 5c lasgun for everyone, van saar gives you 5c shock staves and most gun attachments as common items, etc.
The regular hunters are cannon fodder at the start of the campaign. I would give them a cheap weapon (5c lasgun for instance) and no armour (don't put a 15c armour on a 50c fighter... just replace them when they die or get crippled). Later, you can give boltgun/hotshot packs and armour to the ones who got the nice upgades.
Conversely, your leader and champions are definitely armour-worthy. They are the only ones who can carry the good guns so you need to protect them.
Try not to be too outnumbered. I would aim for 7~8 guys at the start. I know it's tempting to give a lot of shiny modded toys to your big guys, but don't forget that 50c can buy you an extra dude with a lasgun.

@Whiysper: isn't the Thunder Hammer a rare (11) item? I don't think you can give one to a Champion from the get go.

 

[Killerqueen]

@Thorgor: I may misremember the house legacy rules, but don't the individual getting the discount need a legacy?, thus making esher lasguns rather expensive? (5+20 as opposed to 15 from the trading post)

 

[Chitriel]

I went with 6.
One leader (shooty) with a plasma cannon, suspensors, Mesh, Undersuit, Van Saar Legacy and Overwatch.
One Champion (Goliath-y) with a Thunder Hammer, mesh, Stimms, and Infiltrate.
One Chmpion (Esher-y) with Esher legacy, Hand Flamer, Stiletto Sword, Mesh, Energy Shield, and Infiltrate.
then 3 shooting gangers with 5C Esher Lasguns.

People either flee the cannon into the melee contingent, or vice versa. The basic Hunters are 3+ shots, or 2+ at 18", so they live to Pin.

Yeah, eventually going to upgun with bolters on the Hunters, but out the gate, that worked a treat for me. Infiltrating two champions to melee range, then group activating them and either flaming bunched-up troops and charging something precious with the Hammer, or getting both into melee. Obviously a touch of Hero-Hammer, but it works. We're also house-ruling heavy weapons down to 1+1/10 Rep, which means just spamming plasma/melta cannons isn't an option (it would be a very boring one, anyway!)

Hope that helps. I know it helped me - but not anyone else in the campaign . Remember that measuring distances counts closed doors as walls, so you can be right behind a door in their deployment, if they screw up . Group activate, open door>flame, and then charge with the Hammernator. He draws all the fire, obviously.

Edit:
Oh, and if you want to see how it's shaken up after a few games:
https://yaktribe.games/underhive/gang/the_forsaken.15429/

That gang seems to be a rather illegal…

· Van Saar Legacy does nothing for the Leader in that setup, but it is legal.

· The Goliath-y champion cannot start with a Thunder Hammer since it is Rare (11) and therefore only Venator Leaders can start with it.

· The Escher-y champion cannot take the Energy Shield without having the Van Saar Legacy.

· The shooty gangers cannot take 5 credit lasguns without the Escher Legacy. So you are in effect paying 25 credits pr. Lasgun, instead of the 15 they cost at the Trading Post.


I can see the gang in the link is equipped differently, but has many of the same issues:

· Collateral cannot be equipped with the Energy Shield or Las Carbine without the Van Saar Legacy. Since he has the Delaque Legacy this is an issue.

· Hudzen-11 cannot start with the Thunder Hammer, but since this gang has played a few games he might have gotten it from the Trading Post?

· Toast cannot have the Energy Shield without having the Van Saar Legacy. Since she has the Escher Legacy this is an issue.

· Wright cannot be equipped with either the Energy Shield or Las Carbine without having the Van Saar Legacy.

· Porter, Smythe and Smith cannot have the 5 credit lasguns without having the Escher Legacy

 

[Thorgor]

@Thorgor: I may misremember the house legacy rules, but don't the individual getting the discount need a legacy?, thus making esher lasguns rather expensive? (5+20 as opposed to 15 from the trading post)

House legacy rules are ill-defined. When you buy stuff, it goes in your stash and you can then equip it on fighters so nothing stops a single ex-Escher from providing bargain lasguns to the full gang. Buy 2 lasguns and your legacy become free, buy 3 and you start saving money. This may not be possible at gang creation though, we may need to wait after the first battle for the gang to visit the trading post.

It's part of the Venator-related Q&A that I'd like to see added to the next version of the YAQ and you can read and discuss here.

 

[pangolin]

how does this look

Leader: mesh + undersuit +van saar legacy + plasma cannon + suspensor (60)

Champion: mesh + undersuit + escher legacy + long las (160)

champion: mesh + undersuit +shield + power sword (205)

and then 5 gangers with las guns (250)

if I did the math right, that leaves 30 credits for recaff

 

[Chitriel]

how does this look

Leader: mesh + undersuit +van saar legacy + plasma cannon + suspensor (60)

Champion: mesh + undersuit + escher legacy + long las (160)

champion: mesh + undersuit +shield + power sword (205)

and then 5 gangers with las guns (250)

if I did the math right, that leaves 30 credits for recaff

Again issues with the equipment and legacies.

Van Saar legacy does nothing for the leader.

Escher legacy does nothing for champion 1.

Champion 2 needs Van Saar legacy in order to buy the shield.

All 5 gangers need Escher legacy in order to buy the 5 credit lasguns.

This is at least the case for starting gangs. One can argue that fighters with legacy can trade their equipment after the first battle. But I would not believe that this is RAI, and one could also argue that the "A Matter of Honour" rules box counters this.

 

[Thorgor]

This is at least the case for starting gangs. One can argue that fighters with legacy can trade their equipment after the first battle. But I would not believe that this is RAI, and one could also argue that the "A Matter of Honour" rules box counters this.

I agree that a matter of honour means only a hunter with <house> legacy should be able to equip <house>-specific stuff. However, it's unclear how it works with discounted common stuff, like the 5c lasguns.
Except when the fighter is first hired, you don't buy stuff explictely for a given fighter, you buy it for the gang (it goes to your stash) and then equip items from the stash to your fighters. The only way to enforce house legacies being used only for the benefit of that one fighter would be to limit their use to the equipment the fighter is given when hired. That would represent the weapons and wargear the fighter had when they left their old house.
But if we consider they still have some connections with their old house and can use them to buy house-specific gear later during the campaign, then they should also be able to provide discounted gear to their fellow hunters.

 

[Chitriel]

I completely agree that it is very unclear.

If Legacy only gives a discount for the fighter with the Legacy, it is a quite expensive trait that is only really worth it if you want a House specific weapon.

If Legacy however lets you put discounted weapons in the hands of any fighter in the gang, it is so good that it is almost an auto include. Especially the Escher Legacy for 5 credit lasguns galore.

It doesnt help that buying equipment already is unclear for Venator Gangs. Can your leader always get Rare (11) and below items at the Trading Post, and thus trade (distribute from stash) these to all fighters in the gang. Or are the Rarities limited to gang creation?

If the Rarities are limited to gang creation the Escher Legacy becomes even better, with easy access to Stiletto and Needle weapons, both nifty at removing multi-wound models.

If Rarities are not limited to gang creation should you then be allowed to buy all Rare (11) as if it were Common forever (or at least until your Leader gets killed and you are limited to Rare (10) via Champions)?


What is not unclear (in my opinion), is that if you intend to start with a HWL discounted item, the fighter that carried the discounted equipment must have the needed Legacy. So the discount trading can only ever start after the first battle, and usually the starting roster is where you need the discounts the most.

 

[pangolin]

@Chitriel while I completely agree that under normal circumstances I wouldn't think the discount should apply to starting gear, the problem is that without it, the venators are kind of screwed, and since there aren't many situations where the discount will actually save you enough to justify the cost, I'm willing to abuse this a little. I honestly think that gang legacies should have been "one free per character" and just link them to the stat lines if people are worried about balance.

Part of the problem is that this is a white dwarf thing, and gw seems to think that the second they finish publishing those, they no longer exist.

But ignoring the acquisition question, how does the list look mechanically?

 

[Whiysper]

Well, is my face red. You're dead right, you can't start with the Thunder Hammer on the Goliath Champion! Not sure how I'd start him out in life, that being the case - although, to be fair, just 'punching people' will work at S6, and equip it on him after your first game (or do the beard of being 1 Leader and 1 Hunter, all gear pre-bought in the stash, deploy, sacrifice hunter, bottle, and reap rep - then hire the rest of the gang. But don't do that, it's bloody silly.)

As to gear - agree it could do with being clearer (N17, ho!), but we've gone with Legacy gives you HWL access (but not tactics cards. Jury still out on pets, leaning towards 'no' at this stage). Haven't actually seen GW3, so didn't know that they'd decided to ban house-specific gear from other houses - which contradicts the ransom suggestion of getting a Rivet Cannon on your non-Goliaths (I *think* that's a Facebook answer, or just an implication in the core book). Definitely ignoring that for our campaign, might look to add it next cycle (and re-jig the Van Saar legacies as needed - not a show-stopper, just a tax, which seems fair for the brokenness of the Shields when stacked on good armour).

@pangolin, unless you're using the house-rule of allowing trade before first game (Which I obviously did!), your lasgun hunters aren't able to start with the 5c Esher guns. Obviously agree with the Leader . Liking the long-las, if and only if you're on 3d boards, and the sword/shield fella looks solid. Skill picks are going to be important to you, as well - that gang ironically isn't going to have much need for the Shooting tree, I'd suspect.

Edit: Agreed that the Rare gear is not an HWL replacement, you only get free Rare results when hiring ganger Hunters - after that they trade like everyone else. With that in mind, you're probably going to need to either houserule trading post access before the first game, or throw the first game (or win it with the Plasma Cannon only ) to get the gear you need. Bloody WD gangs, such fun ideas, and they really need more than 1 designer on their lunch break to realise them -.-

 

[TopsyKretts]

At first I was against the notion than one house legacy would grant the entire gang discount. But the alternative practically denies swapping equipment internally in the gang, and that would be a much greater evil.

 

[pangolin]

@Whiysper technically you wouldn't need a house rule since the rules for the stash say that anything you purchase at the trading post gets put into your stash (as well as "old" wargear if you want to argue that the legacy HWL isn't the trading post) and since you can equip a new fighter with anything from the stash, it checks out. I understand that it isn't the most intuitive way to think about it, but since the writers really didn't leave much to work with (the wording technically doesn't disallow you from getting rares after the first round) , there isn't a real precedent to interoperate on.

Also, thank you so much for the feedback on the list, I genuinely appreciate it. I wanted to put this at the bottom of the post so that it was the main takeaway not the nitpicking.

 

[Ravenclaw]

Using all the logic above about buying to stash for gang creation makes zero sense, because if you allow that during gang creation the leader can buy rares for everyone, which make any restriction during creation process null and void and point less putting on paper.

The gang creation step using trade post is guideline for that specific profile for that single character, all these hunter would have their own gear before they joined the gang, hence the different backgrounds.

After gang creation THEN and only then are you actually using the trade post, and then and only then does the buying to stash take effect.

This is important step for balance how they start, and how they progress, future trade actions will also require the rare rolls to see what's available too.

 

[TopsyKretts]

We really need a solution that doesn't motivate nude gang sacrifice a fighter to bottle the first game.

We can't have strict limitations before first game and free access to everything after first game. It is futile and pointless.

Either we must have free access to everything before and after the first game, or strict limiations before and after first game.

 

[spafe]

While I understand it would be a house rule, I would suggest that anything that is rarity limit unlock by the leader, has to be given to him/he/it, but anything else is fair game. Just how I'd play it

 

[Thorgor]

We can't have strict limitations before first game and free access to everything after first game. It is futile and pointless.

Either we must have free access to everything before and after the first game, or strict limiations before and after first game.

Having less limitation at gang creation than during the campaign could also work. The way I read it, the free access to Rare (8/10/11) stuff only works at gang creation. After that, you have to spend Trade actions and roll like everyone else, including when you hire a new guy (since they get their equipment from the stash)