N18 Venators in Uprising Campaign - House Weapons List is the Trading Post - Unbalanced?

[thanejaw]

hey there - I'm planning the next campaign at the club and trying to pre-empt gaminess - we'll be doing a Dark Uprising campaign which is grand.

My one concern is that a few people want to play Venators - which is fine - however their HWL is the Trading post - which no one else gets access to. I'm currently hedging towards requiring them to choose a specific House Weapon List and sticking with that - does anyone have any other suggestions on how to address this?

cheers

 

[pathatrick]

Seems like all of the smart bounty hunters would move on after an uprising of that scale being that there is no money to be made. Maybe if they stick around they have to choose a house legacy and go off that HWL.

 

[spafe]

If you allow weapon swapping, then HWL of the gang leaders legacy, if you dont, then the same, but any fighter with their own legacy uses their own hwl

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

Their house weapon list isn't the trading post. They don't have a house weapon list.
It's just that at the start of the campaign they purchase weapons from the trading post up to the rarity allowed by the fighter type.

Really, it's a disadvantage because if they get a bad trade roll they almost freeze purchasing for a game.

 

[MrAndersson]

I'm currently hedging towards requiring them to choose a specific House Weapon List and sticking with that...

That would make Venators even stronger. They would just pick Goliath's HWL and enjoy the nice discount on Grenade launchers.

 

[Mr. Litotes]

Their house weapon list isn't the trading post. They don't have a house weapon list.
It's just that at the start of the campaign they purchase weapons from the trading post up to the rarity allowed by the fighter type.

Really, it's a disadvantage because if they get a bad trade roll they almost freeze purchasing for a game.

This is also my understanding, and I believe it makes the most sense. In our campaigns items of common rarity are always available, even at gang creation.

 

[Jumbley]

I feel like taking away being able to equip their starting gang from the Trading Post from Venators removes one of the most important things that make them interesting to play. If you're locked into using just one House gang equipment list anyways... why wouldn't you just have them play that House Gang? What does being a Venator gang mean in that case?

The whole point with Venators is the gang composition: mixing-and-matching unit statlines and loadouts, having a patchwork gang of Bounty Hunters and former House Gangers and whatever else you can put together. If you're not cool with someone making a gang like that for balance purposes, then maybe consider not allowing Venator gangs in the first place? Homogenizing them to be "House gangs but with a different name" is pointless.

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

I agree, mix&match is entirely thr point if Venators.
And really, it's no more OP than any of the house lists are. In fact, I'd argue that house list discounts are often MORE OP than trading post access.

 

[MrAndersson]

Like I have pointed out in various other threads; this game is not balanced. Some weapons are just better than others, and by a wide margin.

Venators are in a perfect position to take advantage of this because they can combine the following:
- Good stat profiles
- The best skill sets
- The best weapons

No other gang can do this (from the start). If you force them to take a house weapon list, they will just pick the best one (Goliath), because it has everything they need for a near optimized gang (except maybe Suspensors) and discounts as an added bonus.

If you want less cheesy builds in a campaign, the only course of action I see is to adjust weapon prices. These are the ones that stick out the most:
Boltgun
Grenade launcher
Heavy bolter

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

100% agree.
Add to that list the combat shotgun with inferno rounds imo.

 

[Dingle-King]

It's my understanding that a Venator gang is alot more pricey too.
Less members etc, specially if you really want the rare stuff it gets expensive, no?.

 

[MrAndersson]

It's my understanding that a Venator gang is alot more pricey too.
Less members etc, specially if you really want the rare stuff it gets expensive, no?.

Their gangers are a bit expensive, yes. Maybe 5 to 10 creds more than they should cost. Leaders and champions are, IMO, priced on point.

Edit:
This is assuming you only pick profiles 3 and 4. Profiles 1 and 2 are strictly worse, and in that case your gangers would be even more overpriced.

 

[thanejaw]

Thanks for the input so far - just to clarify i wasn’t going to restrict how they’re set up at the beginning but asking how to deal with them gaining additional equipment during the course of an insurrection campaign.

Specifically I’m trying To address how should Venators deal with the scavenging rolls if it provides them with additional equipment which would ordinarily come from their House Weapon List.

one interpretation is that they don’t have a HWL, but that inhibits them from gaining equipment - however scavenging from the Trading Post (which is their proxy for a HWL) provides them with a significant advantage over other gangs who don’t have access to it.

 

[thanejaw]

Their house weapon list isn't the trading post. They don't have a house weapon list.
It's just that at the start of the campaign they purchase weapons from the trading post up to the rarity allowed by the fighter type.

Really, it's a disadvantage because if they get a bad trade roll they almost freeze purchasing for a game.

we’re going with the vanilla interpretation where there is no access to the Trading Post during the Insurrection campaign - so there aren’t any trade rolls

 

[TopsyKretts]

Can they simply survive on common items?

 

[MrAndersson]

Can they simply survive on common items?

Survive, sure. But they will be at a serious disadvantage.

 

[Petitioner's City]

I'm asking that venator players create a house weapon list, based on caps of total rarity per category. This is what we'll trial:

HOUSE WEAPON LIST

In an Uprising Campaign, a player must determine their Venator gang’s house weapon list. The gang automatically has access to all common weapons and equipment at the Legal Trading Post.

In addition, the player must make a list. It can be composed of:

1. Up to 3 additional basic weapons, with a combined rarity of 20 or less.
2. Up to 3 additional pistols, with a combined rarity of 20 or less.
3. Up to 3 additional special weapons with a combined rarity of 20 or less.
4. Up to 2 additional heavy weapons with a combined rarity of 20 or less. Note, lascannons, multimelta, plasma cannons and grav cannons may not be included.
5. Up to 3 additional types of grenades, with a combined rarity of 20 or less.
6. Up to 6 additional close combat weapons with a combined total rarity of 30 or less.
7. Up to four special ammunitions, with a combined total rarity of 30 or less.
8. Up to 1 additional set of armour, with a rarity of 8 or less.
9. Up to 1 item of gang equipment, with a rarity of 8 or less.
10. Up to 6 additional items of personal equipment, with a combined total rarity of 40 or less.

The total value of the gang’s House Weapon List must be a total rarity of 150 (common items counting as 0 for these totals).

It isn't perfect, but is an attempt to emulate the house lists with restrictions.

 

[MrAndersson]

I'm asking that venator players create a house weapon list, based on caps of total rarity per category. This is what we'll trial:

HOUSE WEAPON LIST

In an Uprising Campaign, a player must determine their Venator gang’s house weapon list. The gang automatically has access to all common weapons and equipment at the Legal Trading Post.

In addition, the player must make a list. It can be composed of:

1. Up to 3 additional basic weapons, with a combined rarity of 20 or less.
2. Up to 3 additional pistols, with a combined rarity of 20 or less.
3. Up to 3 additional special weapons with a combined rarity of 20 or less.
4. Up to 2 additional heavy weapons with a combined rarity of 20 or less. Note, lascannons, multimelta, plasma cannons and grav cannons may not be included.
5. Up to 3 additional types of grenades, with a combined rarity of 20 or less.
6. Up to 6 additional close combat weapons with a combined total rarity of 30 or less.
7. Up to four special ammunitions, with a combined total rarity of 30 or less.
8. Up to 1 additional set of armour, with a rarity of 8 or less.
9. Up to 1 item of gang equipment, with a rarity of 8 or less.
10. Up to 6 additional items of personal equipment, with a combined total rarity of 40 or less.

The total value of the gang’s House Weapon List must be a total rarity of 150 (common items counting as 0 for these totals)

It isn't perfect, but is an attempt to emulate the house lists with restrictions.

That's a really wordy and complicated way of saying "you can buy anything you wish, except for a Multi-melta or a Lascannon".

 

[Petitioner's City]

That's a really wordy and complicated way of saying "you can buy anything you wish, except for a Multi-melta or a Lascannon".

I think you'll remember my opinions on these weapons, but let's not fight about that again.

Overall it's just calculus - I want a rare 10 special weapon for my leader or champion , fine, but now I can really only have a less effective backup - and come damnation, am I likely to ever afford it again?

 

[MrAndersson]

No, I didn't mean to critique your banning of these weapons. I understand the reasoning, at least for the Lascannon.

What I meant was that those 10 bullet points you list don't put any real restrictions on a Venator gang (other than the banned weapons), compared to the current system. They can still choose basically anything they want. They can't have three different (rare) special weapons in their initial lineup, but how often does one feel the need to have that anyway? Especially since Venators can't give special weapons to their Gangers.

So why bother with such a complicated system, when it essentially does nothing to combat powergaming?