Versatile and Rain of blows ?

[UnderhiveBerzerker]

Hello fellow scum

I know the compendium isn't out yet, but....

With the new Versatile rules, has the Rain of Blows skill become more useful (or at the least useful)?

Since you now can make CC attacks without being subject to reaction attacks, unless the opponent also has versatile weapon. The survivability of the fighter has increased somewhat imo.

Lets imagine a Champion euipped with some sort of versatile CC weapon charges in and makes the Free Fight action, when the leader uses overseer activation to make two Basic Fight actions (because of Rain of blows) with the fighter.

It makes for a lot of attacks with low risk for the attacker, initially at least

viable or still too situational ?

 

[Thorgor]

I think it depends on whether Versatile lets you make a Fight action and a Shoot action in the same turn. If you can do that (and using the new Versatile with the old rules, you can) then there is little value in being able to Fight twice when you could Fight and Shoot.

 

[UnderhiveGangstar]

There is some value in fighting if you have higher strength and a better chance to hit in CC. Most guns will hit on 3+ or better at that range so you would need a decent WS for it to be better. You may make more hits with the rapid fire dice, so it depends how many attacks vs shots you have too.

A Cawdor leader with a WS advance would be better off fighting twice rather than shooting, if they had an autogun polearm. On a charge they would make the same number of potential hits, but only 2 attacks in an ongoing fight vs potential 3 with autogun. Shooting could give more wounds but probably wont due to lower strength. If they also had an attack advance, then you would guarantee the same number of hits that shooting could acheive, and CC would then always be the better choice.

A Cawdor champ would have a better chance at hitting with a shot as one action unless they had two WS advances. They would also only make two attacks per fight unless they charged, so shooting gives a better chance to hit, and potentially more hits. The dice should average out to roughly the same though. These would be a lower strength than the CC attack, so it could still be worth risking it if you need the higher strength.

Pinning wouldn't happen from the versatile attack so if you need to pin, CC followed by shooting might be a good idea. If they survive, the opponent couldn't counter charge in their following turn, leaving you safer than two CC attacks would have.

 

[Thorgor]

Yeah, depending on profile, available weapons and other skills, it can be better to Fight twice than Shoot and Fight. However, I'm still not sure the skill is worth the XP (or the opportunity cost, if you take it as a starting skill).

 

[UnderhiveGangstar]

I agree, as a starting skill its probably not a good choice, as you really need the other advances first to make it viable. Once you have those I would definitely consider it depending on my loadout. In general I do like rain of blows with non versatile weapons.

 

[Killer Shrike]

Rain of Blows is a good ability mechanically, on paper. The problem is just that ccw is so lethal it is unusual for opportunities to use it to occur during an actual battle. The "perfect storm" situation where it is able to do legitimately significant work is somewhat rare; it can happen but most of the other skills in the same category will pay off much more frequently.

My group did a re-balancing of the skills many months ago when we started the current turf war, with the intent of making every skill good and as equivalently useful as possible; one of the proposed changes was to make Rain of Blows function in a different way. A few possibilities were considered; one idea was a Double Action that doubled the fighter's base Attack. Another idea was to make it expressly a multi-combatant ability (a sort of companion to Combat Master) allowing the fighter to divide their attacks between multiple opponents without suffering Retaliation attacks. Another idea was to allow the fighter to reroll their missing ccw hit dice. However, we didn't settle on a consensus so we left the skill unchanged. The skill was taken on a few fighters in our early skirmishes and first turf war, but a pretty telling judgement is that in the second turf war (which has gone on for months and is only now winding down) the only fighters who have the skill are a few Hired Guns. No one has chosen to take it on an actual rostered fighter.

 

[UnderhiveGangstar]

Those are some interesting alternative rules but I can see why it was difficult to get everyone to agree. I would probably keep it as it is but if I had to pick one of your options it would be the reroll.

Counter Attack is similar in that it only comes in to play when you are in a second round of fighting, if you are successfully charging. As close combat is so deadly in this game, this doesn't happen too often. If it does, both of these will help you if you survive the enemies attacks/counter attacks.

My Escher leader can make a huge number of retaliatory strikes with toxin if the enemy misses. Double parry from the two stiletto swords helps here. If a standard enemy ganger has 3 WS4+ attacks on a charge, 1 or 2 should hit. I can then parry both these, which has a strong chance of preventing one more. You are then only being hit once, so the enemy needs D2 weapons to be able to take you out. If I survive, I can hit back 6 times with WS2+. The more attacks they have, the more you could possibly hit them back.

With Rain of Blows, that character would make 2 lots of 4 attacks, but would be taking hits too so I feel this skill is less useful than counter attack for a normal weapon. With a versatile weapon, it does gain some added value, enabling the two rounds of fighting with no counter attacks. Then Rain of blows becomes more of an offensive skill. You would want a decent attack stat if you were doing this, as you are probably only using one weapon. Two shock staves or whips could be interesting though.

 

[autoxidation]

Rain of Blows is a good ability mechanically, on paper. The problem is just that ccw is so lethal it is unusual for opportunities to use it to occur during an actual battle. The "perfect storm" situation where it is able to do legitimately significant work is somewhat rare; it can happen but most of the other skills in the same category will pay off much more frequently.

My group did a re-balancing of the skills many months ago when we started the current turf war, with the intent of making every skill good and as equivalently useful as possible; one of the proposed changes was to make Rain of Blows function in a different way. A few possibilities were considered; one idea was a Double Action that doubled the fighter's base Attack. Another idea was to make it expressly a multi-combatant ability (a sort of companion to Combat Master) allowing the fighter to divide their attacks between multiple opponents without suffering Retaliation attacks. Another idea was to allow the fighter to reroll their missing ccw hit dice. However, we didn't settle on a consensus so we left the skill unchanged. The skill was taken on a few fighters in our early skirmishes and first turf war, but a pretty telling judgement is that in the second turf war (which has gone on for months and is only now winding down) the only fighters who have the skill are a few Hired Guns. No one has chosen to take it on an actual rostered fighter.

I'd be interested in hearing how your group balanced all of the skills. So many are useless out there.

 

[Killer Shrike]

Your mileage may vary, but here it is: http://www.killershrike.com/Necromunda/SkillsList.aspx

 

[Jacob Dryearth]

With the new Versatile rules...

What are they?

 

[Thorgor]

What are they?

 

[UnderhiveBerzerker]

Had a "Forgotten riches" fight with an Cawdor gang this weekend and we tried out the new rules.

Versatile isn't super, but it certainly gives some nice tactical options with the polearms and 2" range just gives your ganger that more reach on the charge. but i see it more as an 2nd wave charge, against an opponent already in combat, e.g. an enemy consolidating into an friendly fighter, giving assists to the polearm wielder.
The polearm hits with S+1 which ok and the whole no-reaction attack part is actually pretty powerful.

IMO an useful trait that seems fairly balanced, makes the 20pt polearms worth it

 

[Sump Thing]

Are pistols versatile now? Would make sense that you can at least shoot back with one if enemy comes poking you with a poleaxe. Ps. clip is a bit LOUD, you might want to turn down the volume before clicking it.

 

[Killer Shrike]

Thanks for posting the screen shot Thorgor.

 

[Cyreth]

Hmm. I like that they've changed the rules for Versatile, even more so since the new rules are very similar to my own house rules. I'm not sure why the new description had to be this long, though ...
I also think it's a little weird to say that fighters with versatile weapons can engage other fighters when they are not in base contact -- this will probably lead to new questions:

• Can you charge a fighter and still attack with a versatile weapon if you cannot get into base contact?
  
• Can a fighter engaged by a fighter with a versatile weapon simply move away (or even charge) during their own activation or do they need to do a Retreat (Basic) action to move? (I believe the last paragraph is intended to address this issue. So you're no longer engaged in your own activation (because Versatile has no effect then) and can do whatever you want. But I suspect the new description will cause some confusion ...)

 

[Jacob Dryearth]

Hmm. I like that they've changed the rules for Versatile, even more so since the new rules are very similar to my own house rules. I'm not sure why the new description had to be this long, though ...
I also think it's a little weird to say that fighters with versatile weapons can engage other fighters when they are not in base contact -- this will probably lead to new questions:

• Can you charge a fighter and still attack with a versatile weapon if you cannot get into base contact?
  
• Can a fighter engaged by a fighter with a versatile weapon simply move away (or even charge) during their own activation or do they need to do a Retreat (Basic) action to move? (I believe the last paragraph is intended to address this issue. So you're no longer engaged in your own activation (because Versatile has no effect then) and can do whatever you want. But I suspect the new description will cause some confusion ...)

I think your guess about point 2 is correct, the enemy is free to act as if not engaged on their activation, which means thay could charge, shoot, or anything else.

It says the enemy is considered to be engaged but is not engaging... um OK. So as I read that they cannot be pinned by versatile attacks since they engaged models are never pinned.

Are pistols versatile now? Would make sense that you can at least shoot back with one if enemy comes poking you with a poleaxe. Ps. clip is a bit LOUD, you might want to turn down the volume before clicking it.

You wouldn't need to make pistols versatile because the target of a versatile attack is no longer engaged after said attack, and may act freely.

 

[autoxidation]

IYou wouldn't need to make pistols versatile because the target of a versatile attack is no longer engaged after said attack, and may act freely.

Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but I think he was talking about making pistols versatile for reaction attacks against a versatile weapon.

 

[Jacob Dryearth]

Oh yeah... didn't think of that.

 

[Malo]

I like the new (clarified!) Versatile being close combat irrespective now, the old version made little sense with melee or ranged. They've become more useful now since you can charge an opponent, not be in base contact but still able to make your melee attacks and they can't reaction (unless they too have Versatile). Both fighters are also considered Engaged as well.

At least that's what I getting from the description. The last sentence though:

At all other times other than during the fighter's activation, Versatile has no effect.

What is this for? I'm guessing to clarify that during the opponent's turn, the model that was attacked if still up is not considered Engaged and can charge the fighter, move off etc.

Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but I think he was talking about making pistols versatile for reaction attacks against a versatile weapon.

Well you couldn't simply throw Versatile on a Pistol since that would mean engaging in close combat from 16" away?

 

[Malo]

Thinking about it, Versatile should have a value in parenthesis, indicating the range. Rather than the range being in the Long. That would allow Pistols to be Versatile.