N17 Versatile and Rain of blows ?

Discussion in 'Rules, Mechanics & Skills' started by UnderhiveBerzerker, Nov 28, 2018.

  1. Thorgor

    Thorgor Of The YAQ

    We would need the complete rules to discuss this fully (since the rule for Engaged may have changed, etc.) but I thought about Pistols (or Sidearms, as I heard they are called now) and it's a "where should it stop?" kind of deal.

    Assuming the rules for the Sidearm (previously Pistol) trait didn't change too much, Sidearm and Versatile weapons are similar in that they can both be used for CC attacks and ranged attacks. The main difference is that, at range, Sidearms use the Shoot action (BS based) while Versatile weapons use the Fight action (WS based, uses the fighter A characteristic). This means that there is no possible reaction attack when attacked with a Sidearm at range but you may make reactions attacks against a ranged Versatile attack (if you also have a Versatile weapon). This begs @Sump Thing's question as well as a few others:
    • if we allow Sidearms to be used for reaction attacks against Versatile, why couldn't we also use other ranged weapons? After all, Indy could have used a shotgun or assault rifle all the same
    • if you are shot with a Sidearm from less than 2" away and you carry a Versatile weapon, why are you pinned? Why can't you make reaction attacks?
    • Same as above but replace Versatile with Sidearm
    • Same as above but replace Sidearm with any ranged weapon
    I think that allowing Versatile weapons to make reaction attack from afar is a design error. It creates an implicit exception to the "Versatile does nothing outside of the fighter's activation" rule that follows and begs too many questions. In addition to all of the above you could also add:
    • If a Versatile weapon can break the rule and be used for reaction attacks, why can't it also break the rule and be used for assisting another fighter?
    #21 Thorgor, Dec 3, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  2. I think i is fairly that Vers weapon cant grant assists to other fighters, since the "only counts in that models acitvation" thing.

    however if an fighter engages an enemy with a versatile weapon, that fighter counts as engaged in his/her activation. the enemy does not die in the first round of combat, next turn can the fighter choose to not use the versatile weapon, and not be engaged, so the fighter could charge again, move away or shoot the regular gun.
    or is the faighter locked in combat and must use the "retreat" action first, hence can't recharge the enemy?

    lets se the rules
    Vonvilkee and Thorgor like this.
  3. UncleFester

    UncleFester Ganger

    I have a lot of questions about these rules. I'm not asking for answers here - I'm just putting out concerns that I hope are answered in the new book(s).

    According to the rules above, if fighters are 3" away with a Versatile weapon w/ range of 3" then they are Engaged (or maybe not Engaged, but considered to be Engaged.) So does targeting them with ranged weapons still give the penalty for targeting an engaged enemy? That's supposed to represent the fact that your friendly fighter is in close proximity and tangled-up with your target. But now he could be quite far away, and probably not reasonably interfering with the shot.

    If the other fighter is "considered to be" Engaged, then he would have to Retreat to fire a weapon. And would he be able to Charge on his activation, or would have to Retreat, then Charge on the next turn? (BTW, I HATE the rule that you have to be able to Charge to enter CC and that's a Double action.)

    How does Interference and Assistance work? If FighterA has a 2" Range Versatile weapon and engaged with FighterB who is 2" away, but then gets Charged by FighterC.... Does FighterA get Interference from FighterB? Or is FighterB now no longer considered to be Engaged with FighterA, and FighterB can now fire or move away freely? Or Charge FighterA?

    FighterA and FighterB are Engaged and in base contact. FighterA has a CC weapon with Knockback. FighterB has a Versatile weapon with 2" Range. If FighterB is knocked back, are they still considered to be Engaged, or do they have to re-engage? (For example: Van Saar w/ Energy Shield, knock-backs opponent on his counter-attack. Can he now shoot on his activation?)

    I was hoping the new rule book would make things clear. I'm now scared it will just add more complications.
  4. Jacob Dryearth

    Jacob Dryearth Gang Champion

    I think all of the above concerns are alleviated if fighters are engaged during the versital weapon user's action, and never at any other time. That's how I read it.
  5. Thorgor

    Thorgor Of The YAQ

    "At all other times other than during this fighter's activation, Versatile has no effect."
    This should answer all your questions @UncleFester

    What bothers me is the previous rule doesn't work without an implicit exception to this rule: if Versatile does nothing outside of a fighter's activation, then it should not be taken into account when determining whether a fighter can make a reaction attack.
    Alobar likes this.
  6. Malo

    Malo YakTribe Mechanicum
    Staff Member Yak Founder

    I think it works as is. The previous rule is the exception. The last rule even starts with "at all other times".
    Alobar and UnderhiveBerzerker like this.
  7. Thorgor

    Thorgor Of The YAQ

    It starts with "at all other times than..." which should be equivalent to "except". Grammatically, I don't think it refers to the previous sentence at all.
    It works, but it's bad writing. If you are going to have a generic rule and an exception, start be writing the generic rule and then follow up with the exception and make it explicit. Implicit exceptions are terrible because implicit anything is terrible when writing rules. There is never a good reason not to be as clear as possible.
    Malo and TopsyKretts like this.
  8. UncleFester

    UncleFester Ganger

    Aahh... so you're not really Engaged at all. It just lets you do a CC attack (using WS and Attacks stats) at range. However, if both FighterA and FighterB have a Versatile weapon (and both are within range), then FighterB CAN make a reaction attack. But they are still not Engaged, and either can walk away, or shoot, at any time. It's making more sense...

    Alobar, cronevald and Malo like this.
  9. Malo

    Malo YakTribe Mechanicum
    Staff Member Yak Founder

    Yeah that's how I read it, especially with "they may engage". It doesn't seem to be forcing the fighter into an Engaged mode when in range with a Versatile weapon.
  10. UncleFester

    UncleFester Ganger

    The thing I like the most is that it seems like you don't have to Charge. I can do a Move (Basic) action into range and then just a Fight (Basic) action. Or more importantly, if I'm pinned near an enemy, I can Stand Up, and do a Fight action. I may never buy another non-versatile CC weapon for that alone.

    As explanation for that comment, I played a Goliath gang for 10 battles and in that time I was able to pull off only 2 successful Charge actions, and one of them was because we did Border Dispute scenario (where 2 fighters start off an inch or so apart) and I won priority in the first round. I got real tired, real fast, of coming up short on a Charge and being left an inch away from an opponent who was able to just keep me pinned and thereby immune to any CC attacks.
  11. TopsyKretts

    TopsyKretts Gang Hero

    Charge definitly needs boosting and so I want Versatile to be as good as it can be. With Versatile, you got full flexibility.

    -can shoot a ranged weapon or hit in close combat with versatile weapon
    -can stand up and fight or move and fight
    -extended range when charging (if fail charge)

    -opponent is not locked, can walk away, charge, shoot or hit back with versatile
    -can be risky if you fail to injure and opponent has versatile with range to retaliate (reaction attack)
    Alobar likes this.
  12. cronevald

    cronevald Ganger

    Is it safe to assume that you'd only get to attack with the versatile weapon if not in base contact and wouldn't get the second weapon bonus die (unless you had two versatile weapons)? What about the bonus for charging? I do like the new rule, I just hope these questions are easily answered.
    Alobar and TopsyKretts like this.
  13. UncleFester

    UncleFester Ganger

    Nothing with GW is safe to assume. Originally, Versatile weapons could be used when in base contact, so that might not change even though using a pole arm or whip while that close is difficult in real life (but this ain't real life.) Also, I'm not sure they will allow using 2 Versatile weapons since they are usually large weapons. Two pole arms wouldn't really work. I don't think two whips would work either... Then again, it ain't real life, so who knows? I can see it going either way. Considering how useful they appear to be, I have a feeling they may try to mute it down a little.

    They definitely have to take into account Versatile weapons in the rules for Charging. Looking forward to it.
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