N18 Versatile and Sidearm trait combination.

Discussion in 'Rules, Mechanics & Skills' started by WeRT!, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. WeRT!

    WeRT! Ganger

    So here is problem:

    You have two Cawdor base profile champions. We will use them as an templates:
    • 1st with Polearm Autogun, Axe (or any weapon without Versatile trait) and Bulking Biceps skill.
    • 2nd with Polearm Autogun, Reclaimed Autopistol and Bulking Biceps skill.
    When they charge 5"+D3 they can stop 2" from enemy model and Engage them in CC.

    1st Chemp can make 2 base attacks + 1 attack from charging. He can't use axe since weapon have only E (Engage) profile.

    2nd Chemp can make 2 base attacks + 1 attack from charging ... +1 attack from side arm? Because this weapon has clearly more then E.

    Rule "Sidearm":
    Weapons with this Trait can be used to make ranged attacks, and can also be used in close combat to make a single attack. Note that their Accuracy bonus only applies when making a ranged attack, not when used to make a close combat attack.

    Your thoughts?
    Oar locks and FerociousBeast like this.
  2. UnderhiveGangstar

    UnderhiveGangstar Gang Champion

    You couldn't use the pistol in the second example. You are fighting in CC so would need the versatile trait to use it at 2". You cant make a normal shooting attack as past of the close combat sequence.

    If you got in to base to base contact, you could use it.
  3. TopsyKretts

    TopsyKretts Gang Hero

    Is this question related to sidearms and versatile, and has nothing to do with polearm specifically?
  4. WeRT!

    WeRT! Ganger

    I didn't said you shoot with your pistol. You are using it in CC, because Sidearm allowing it.

    GotU page 144:
    VERSATILE: The wielder of a Versatile weapon does not need to be in base contact with an enemy fighter in order to Engage them in melee during their activation. They may Engage and make close combat attacks against an enemy fighter during their activation, so long as the distance between their base and that of the enemy fighter is equal to or less than the distance shown for the Versatile weapon’s Long range characteristic. For example, a fighter armed with a Versatile weapon with a Long range of 2" may Engage an enemy fighter that is up to 2" away. The enemy fighter is considered to be Engaged, but may not in turn be Engaging the fighter armed with the Versatile weapon unless they too are armed with a Versatile weapon, and so may not be able to make Reaction attacks. At all other times other than during this fighter’s activation, Versatile has no effect.

    page 50:
    ENGAGED: If the base of a Standing fighter is touching the base of an enemy fighter, they are said to be in base to base contact and are Engaged with that enemy fighter. A Standing fighter that is Engaged can generally only choose to fight or retreat, but factors such as skills may increase the number of available options. Players should note that in some cases a fighter may be able to Engage an enemy fighter they are not in base to base contact with and may act accordingly when activated.

    So you use weapon with Versatile trait to ENGAGE enemy models. And while he is engage:

    page 68:
    PISTOLS AT CLOSE QUARTERS: A weapon with the Sidearm trait can only have one Attack dice allocated to it. Any remaining attacks must be allocated to a weapon with the Melee trait. If a fighter has no other weapons with the Melee trait, any remaining attacks must be Unarmed attacks, as described above. If a fighter attacks with a weapon with the Sidearm trait in close combat, Accuracy modifiers do not apply – this is only used when making ranged attacks.

    page 68:
    CLOSE COMBAT: Fighters that are Standing and Engaged with an enemy fighter may make close combat attacks against them.


    There is no a single word you can't use pistol in that way. Don't ask me how it looks and how it works. I'm asking not about reality but about rules clarification and those may have nothing to do with logic.

    @TopsyKretts - yeah, you are right, there are few other weapons with versatile so I'll change topic title.
    #4 WeRT!, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  5. UnderhiveGangstar

    UnderhiveGangstar Gang Champion

    I know you aren't making a shooting attack, but you do shoot your pistol when you use it in CC too, that's why I mentioned it. If you use an autopistol, you can get three hits with it in CC.

    You still cant use a sidearm in close combat at 2" though, it doesn't have versatile. This rule is a necessary requirement to make a close combat attack when not in base to base contact. As the pistol attack would be part of the fight action, you don't meet the requirements. There is nothing to stop you making a separate shoot action, as both are basic actions so you could make one of each.
  6. Forward Assist

    Forward Assist Gang Champion
    Yak Comp 2nd Place

    I think what @WeRT! is highlighting is that RAW the prerequisite to use a Sidearm in close combat is to be Engaged. If you are attacking with a Versatile weapon then you count as Engaged and, as such, can use the Sidearm.

    Personally, I'd be happy for both combatants to play it like this but RAW they can only retaliate with a Sidearm if also armed with a Versatile weapon themselves.
  7. UnderhiveGangstar

    UnderhiveGangstar Gang Champion

    I know, RAW you can use any weapon once you are "engaged" in b2b contact. Using the versatile weapon counts you as engaged.

    The sidearm rule specifies that it is a close combat attack, and that you do not receive the bonus modifiers associated with a normal shooting attack. As it is a close combat attack, you must have the versatile rule to use at any other range than B2B during a fight action unless you also have a versatile weapon.

    The versatile rule doesn't actually specify that only the versatile weapon may be used. The problem is that the prerequisite to use any weapon in melee is that you are engaged. This means RAW you could also use a second hand weapon at the versatile weapons range. As you are now engaged, you are using the E range.

    I believe that this is not what was intended, and that only versatile weapons were meant to be used in a versatile close combat. If that was the case, the pistol would then not be allowed. Otherwise any hand weapon is also viable as an extra attack.
    #7 UnderhiveGangstar, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  8. WeRT!

    WeRT! Ganger

    You are using Versatile to override Melee trait to make range attacks without b2b contact with melee weapons:

    GotU page 143:

    MELEE: This weapon can be used during close combat attacks.


    The wielder of a Versatile weapon does not need to be in base contact with an enemy fighter in order to Engage them in melee during their activation.

    So you engaged enemy model to CC. You don't attack them yet in terms of making attacks.
    You just CHANGED their status from Standing to Engage.

    They may Engage and make close combat attacks against an enemy fighter during their activation, so long as the distance between their base and that of the enemy fighter is equal to or less than the distance shown for the Versatile weapon’s Long range characteristic.

    I don't see a single word both weapons needs to have Versatile trait.
    Only requirement for ATTACKS for both weapons is Versatile weapon Long range.


    ps. Friend of mine said: "I see you've thrown sh1t into fan and waiting how it'll look like on the other side" ;)
    #8 WeRT!, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  9. UnderhiveGangstar

    UnderhiveGangstar Gang Champion

    That's what I said, you only need one weapon with the versatile trait to engage at versatile range. You could use a pistol or any other hand weapon as a second weapon. The Escher shock whip and a stiletto sword could both be used at 3".

    I was trying to point out that I do not believe this is what is intended. I believe that the intention was to only let the weapon with the versatile trait attack at the versatile range. If that is the case then the pistol would not be able to attack without the versatile trait. That is not what is written though, so unless there is anything that I have missed, your interpretation is correct. I guess it will be house ruled by many players, but until it is added to the faq its legal.
    Kairae, TopsyKretts and WeRT! like this.
  10. Thorgor

    Thorgor Of The YAQ

    Using Versatile to Engage an enemy from range apparently does not mean you are at 'E' range. Otherwise most Versatile weapons would always suffer from their -1 to hit at short range, which is probably unintended. This may be used to rule out using Melee weapons from range since they have a long range of 'E', but Sidearms usually have a longer long range.
    I still don't think that Sidearm are supposed to be usable alongside Versatile weapons at range. Since you can't Engage an enemy fighter from range using solely a Sidearm, it would be a bit strange to suddenly be able to just because you also carry a Whip.
    #10 Thorgor, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  11. I understood the -1 on vertsatile to mean if your opponent was also in engage range with his weapons then the vertsatile will get a -1 example shock whip is great up to 3 '' but as soon as the opponent gets within base to base ( within 1") then the shockwhip has -1 to hit. The classic " you got under the guard of long reach melee weapon"
  12. Uh when you engage with versatile at 2" you aren't counted as using E because verasilte weapons like polearm give -1 at E and - at 2".
    Kairae and Jacob Dryearth like this.
  13. WeRT!

    WeRT! Ganger

    @Thorgor And why would you want to loose pistol short range bonus and engage enemy only at your model activation sequence?
    Only benefit I see is free Coup De Grace in consolidating.

    I see your and @UnderhiveGangstar point and I agree partially with you guys . But I've decided to squeeze every single tear and blood drop from rules and I won't hesitate for using every comma and dot.
    #13 WeRT!, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  14. TopsyKretts

    TopsyKretts Gang Hero

    I'm gonna keep things simple until the rules are explained clearly. That means only Versatile weapons can be used unless B2B.
  15. Thorgor

    Thorgor Of The YAQ

    You can't consolidate and Coup de grâce now. You can only do one or the other.
    Being able to Engage an Enemy fighter with Sidearms would let you:
    • Charge and Fight an enemy up to 12" away with two Sidearms (for most pistols, that's a +1 to hit compared to making a Shoot action with TGB and +1D3" of movement compared to making a Move and a Shoot actions)
    • Assuming Engaging an enemy fighter from range also makes them automatically Stand up, it would also let you 'shoot' (Fight) hidden enemy fighters
    Obviously, that's not how Sidearms work. You can't Fight with two Sidearms at range. By the same token, I don't think you should be able to Fight with a Versatile weapon and a Sidearm at range.
  16. WeRT!

    WeRT! Ganger

    I've used wrong term (last part of sequence) and I'm agree that consolidating and Coup De Grace are two different actions.
    You are right. That is why Sidearm don't have Versatile trait.

    So literally you are telling me, if you are b2b contact you CAN use side arm but without b2b you can't.
    Even if you are still shooting at your enemy (but using WS) and gaining profits from Rapid Fire trait.
    Okey ...
    3" ? Too long distance.
    2" ? Nope.
    1" ? Still too long distance.
    0.000000001"? Sorry. No b2b contact.
    B2B! Finally I can shoot the enemy.
    Common... am I the only one who think this is stupid beyond any recognition?

    I understand hesitation if this case will only benefiting Cawdor.
    But at least 3 other gangs gaining from it. Delaque & VS with their shock staves and Eschers with Shock whip. And you'll still suffer -1 (Polearm, Chainglave and Shock whip) in b2b combat. For me it's not only proper but fair from balance perspective.

    It's not about what we think and what we feel. It's about how rules are written.

    ps. I'm not believe this case will be ever addressed in any FAQ. We have already 4th public iteration (base N17 Rulebook, FAQ v1, N18 revised Rulebook, FAQ v2).
    #16 WeRT!, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
    steve garcia and 9thandBaklavey like this.
  17. cronevald

    cronevald Gang Champion


    Just send it in. They have been answering questions recently.
    Ben_S, 9thandBaklavey and Kairae like this.
  18. WeRT!

    WeRT! Ganger

  19. cronevald

    cronevald Gang Champion

    You are correct. My mistake, I copied that address from the reply to my own rules question.
  20. enyoss

    enyoss Gang Hero
    Tribe Council

    Same here. Any other interpretation for sidearms feels like Easter egg hunting to me.
    TopsyKretts, Kairae and cronevald like this.
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