N18 Versatile, round 2

[lastbrat]

Trying to equip my (Venator) with a versatile weapon, but expect some resistance from fellow players. Have not been able to find any discussion which provided an answer to all my questions (in particular Q nr 8 and 9) Have some questions:
1. The FAQ says "Q. Can a fighter with a Versatile weapon engage an enemy fighter using a Move (Simple) action and then attack them in close combat? A: Yes", which baffled me beacuse the rules say the (free) Fight (Basic) action can only be performed in Close Combat, for which you need to be engaged in the first place. Does this mean that you do not need to declare or perform a charge (double) action if you have a versatile weapon, and instead get to perform CC attacks (on fighters within the versatile weapon's Long range) in addition to other basic actions you can do?
2. Can you then also do Stand Up (from pinned) and attack someone in CC (if versatile range)?
3. In any case, if attacking in CC (performing the Fight basic action) you become engaged, right?. If so, the EE/Long range modifiers for versatile weapons are confusing, but I get what they MENT to say (in versatile range = use Long range to hit modifiers).
4. I assumed that "engaged" means that both (or multiple) fighters are engaged, but it may also mean that only one of them is engaged (the attacker), UNLESS they are in B2B, then the other (attacked) fighter also becomes engaged. Which one is it?
5. If making a reaction attack, are you considered engaged or only in CC (or does one imply the other or vice versa?)?
6. If attacked by a versatile weapon, can a fighter then be pinned as a result of the attack (if Yes then it means the fighter is not engaged, if No that means the fighter is engaged)?
6. If you are not able to perform a reaction attack (because you have no versatile weapons), are you then considered to NOT being engaged, and are then free to perform any actions in the next round (that are permitted by your status)? If so, that means you can (if survied the attack and not seriously injured) may move/shoot/charge the attacker in the next round?
7. If the attacked fighter IS armed with a versatile wepon, and performs a reaction attack, then both fighters are considered to be Engaged. Does this also mean they are not able to "disengage" or move away freely, but need to perform the "retreat" action?
8. If both fighters are considered engaged and in CC, I assume this status persists for the following round(s), until the HtH combat is resolved? If so, what can the fighter without a versatile weapon do, if in the next round they get to activate first? Are they allowed to "close the gap" by performing a move action and attack in CC normally, or do they need to declare charge (and get the bonus +1 A for it) in order to be able to attack their opponent? If they would need to charge, despite being "engaged" by the other fighter wielding a versatile weapon, and so effectively being in CC that would be very strange, since you would have to fighters in CC charging each other each round... If they do not need to charge, but instead can just close the gap and come into B2B contact, that would be another not permissible action (you are not allowed to come closer that 1" from enemy fighters unless you charge them or perfom an involuntary action, correct?).
9. If the guy without versatile weapon gets be be activated after the other fighter in the second round, are they again not able to do anything (if engaged and no versatile weapon = no reaction attack, and engaged means they cannot shoot) except to perform a retreat action?
10. How do you perform a Coup de Gras with a versatile weapon if you attacked with it (successfully) at Long range (not B2B)? Or do you need to first charge the seriously injured opponent to perform this action, in the following round?
11. Bonus question: if two fighters that are in CC get hit by a template or blast attack, and are both hit, do they remain in CC?
11a. If yes to Q11, then if either gets pinned, they may remain standing and continue the CC in subsequent rounds?

Thanks for all your answers and suggestions!

 

[JayTee]

Quickly as I'm on the train some answers:

1. Charge is optional to attack someone with a Versatile weapon
2. Yes
3 & 4. Not quite. While attacking with a Versatile weapon (and your opponent does not have a Versatile weapon) your opponent is Engaged but you are not, so you can smack someone with a Polearm and then perform a Move.
5. If you are attacking someone with a Versatile weapon and they too have (an in-range) Versatile weapon you are both Engaged for the duration of the Fight.
Also note there's no such thing as "being in CC" which you mention here.
6. No. You are only Pinned after being hit by a Ranged attack, there is no mechanism for a melee attack to cause pinning
10. You can't unless you're within 1" of your target
11. Yes
11a. Covered by Pg 75 of the AW rulebook (and elsewhere). "A Standing and Engaged fighter cannot become Prone and Pinned"

 

[lastbrat]

While attacking with a Versatile weapon (and your opponent does not have a Versatile weapon) your opponent is Engaged but you are not

Ah, I see... so it is the attacked fighter that is engaged, not the attacker (if using a versatile weapon at a range)?

Some follow-up questions then:
12: So this means if a stray shot misses the attacker, the engaged fighter may be hit instead (even if at 3" away from the attacker, if their versatile weapon has a 3" range) - I assume the answer is no, and they ment to say engaged and in B2B?

13: Shooting at the attacker (who performed the Fight action at a range) would not get the -1 to hit modifier for engaged fighters?

14: But then, according to the Coup de Grace rule (Dark Uprising rulebook), which says: "If all enemy fighters the attacker was engaged with are now prone and seriously injured..." the attacker, armed with a versatile weapon, performing a ranged " Fight (basic) close combat attack" may NOT perform a coup de grace, even if within 1" from the attacked fighter, beceause the attacker was NOT engaged?

15: If the attacker is not engaged (so not in B2B) and armed with a versatile wpn, he may then both shoot the other fighter (basic action) and make a close combat Fight attack (basic), in the same round and in order of choosing, provided they did not perform any other actions in that round?

16: A fighter - the attacker - (with a versatile weapon), who ends their charge within B2B contact is also engaged, irregardless with which weapon he then attacks (that's what I read in the rulebook)?

 

[lastbrat]

I've re-read the FAQ Q&A quoted above, and am even more puzzled:

17: Is the "attack them in Close Combat" action the same free Fight (basic) action you use after charging and engaging the fighter if in B2B? If yes, than that would be unfair (my opinion) and would not be logical, so I assume not?

17a: If 'No' Why would you choose to move and attack instead of charge and attack, and miss the +1A for that attack? (not really a rule question, more of a common sense one).

 

[JayTee]

I think a key point you're missing here is that once an attacker's activation is done with a Versatile weapon, they are no longer Engaged nor Engaging someone. Effectively they are just two fighters hanging out at range of each other. That handles a lot of your edge cases here, once the Fight is done treat them as normal Fighters with no real relation to each other.

12. Depending on the position of the attacker's target they are still eligible to be hit via the 1" corridor, but not because they are Engaged (Because they are not)
13. Correct
14. CdG regardless of any other rules can only be performed against a target within 1". It's nothing to do with Engaged or otherwise but because the action CdG has a restriction on which targets are valid
15. Yes
16. Yes
17. It is the same, the wording on Charge (Double) explicitly makes this clear that you perform a free Fight (Basic) action
17a. You wouldn't, but you may already be in Versatile range and wish to Reload and then Fight, or Fight then Shoot, or Move then Fight, etc. Charge gives you less options but +1A; it's a trade-off.

The simplest way to think of Versatile is that it allows you to make a Fight action when not in B2B contact with someone, but outside of this (And reaction attacks) it effectively has no effect.

 

[lastbrat]

Ok, thanks a bunch, that makes sense I guess. So it's probably better to make sure you take the other guy out/ inflict serious injury, or else he's likely to shoot back the next round?

 

[Zotyo72]

Effectively they are just two fighters hanging out at range of each other.

Hi there,


Regarding the mentioned statement, it is hard to imagine close combat, when someone with a longer weapon attacks and then puts the weapon down, and does nothing. I imagine close combat as a continuous, fluid torrent of events, the occupants are constantly trying to hurt each other and avoid being hurt. The polearm, or any weapon with reach (Versatile in this game's terminology) has a considerable advantage over shorter handweapons. The attacker or defender with a Versatile weapon can threaten enemies all the time within the reach of the weapon. Not just at that moment when the attack is done.

Can someone explain what is the life like reason behind the mentioned statement? Was it the original intention of the game, or just interpreted as RAW?

Thank you.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Sure. You are correct the range gives the advantage and is able to threat. But only during the attacker's fight activation when making the fight action. Versatile has the range to threat of attack, but not to lock you in close combat. Isn't it the same for everything? I point at you with a gun. You open the door and walks out of the room. Why couldn't I shoot you first? Isn't this the asynchronous turn based nature of all tabletop games?

This isn't unique to Necromunda or invented by GW, it is a traditional game mechanic in miniature war games for decades.

 

[daveh]

Zotyo72​

if you are looking for 'lifelike' , your going to be dissapointed with any set of rules where one person moves or acts while everybody else stands frozen to the spot.
also nobody is crawling or running doubled over in zig zags to avoid being shot.gw's rules are a confusing mix of oversimplification and twisted complexity.
i feel your pain.