Victor Battles: 2nd edition 40K army codex

[Insurgent]

When are we just going to build all the armies into 2nd edition codex lists for Shadow War?

I'm cool with the basic profile of the SWA Kill Teams (except Dark Eldar) but at some point I would like to see the whole codex list available for play. In the end this could simply lead to strait battles between 2nd edition armies under the umbrella of the Necromunda tabletop rules.

Of course some factions would need to be built from scratch but SWA has even provided a skeleton for these factions to start. I foresee no lack of gusto for a creative project like this. These factions include.
~Necrons
~Tau
~Dark Eldar
~Sisters of Battle
~Inquisition


Campaign Victor: Codex Army.
If full codexes of all the SWA factions develop then it may be possible to conclude SWA campaigns with a 1500 point 2nd edition 40K game (15,000 point SWA). The runner up in the campaign can face off with the victor if they roll under their Promethium stash on 2D6 (Each cache equals 100 2nd edition 40K points or 1000 SWA points). The victors army will be the total points of the Kill Team plus any units from the corresponding faction army codex. The army list constructed by the victor may be divided up and challenge any Kill Teams in the campaign once. Codex units can be used only once in an "Open battle", "Rebel Purge" or "Kill Team fight" scenario. But a victor may divide his army list into as many scenario lists as he has troops in his Kill Team and a troop from his kill team must be present during any scenario conducted by units from his victory army list.

The victor may decide to engage the runner up in an all out "Open Battle" with all the units of his army list. Or he may fight several battles against various Kill Teams in the campaign by dividing the units of his army list into several scenarios.
One codex unit Vs. one Kill team is played as a Kill Team Fight
Two to four codex units Vs. one Kill Team is played as a Rebel Purge Scenario.
Five or more codex units Vs. the runner ups army list of codex units in an "Open Battle" scenario.
REfusing to give battle to a victor will cause the loss of 3D6 Promeathium Cashe.

Various victory conditions and scenario rules may apply....

After the victors onslaught and all codex units having been used in scenarios, the victor may start a new Kill Team with 1500 points and may carry over any characters he chooses.

 

[Space Truckin]

kinda thought about this a while ago if I'm reading what you wrote correctly. I like 40k not a fan of 8th ed or the new direction so I was thinking this would be a way to incorporate those other models that would normally never see the light of day ever again.
Like a group of Scouts have to take out a Carnifex kinda aliens scenario - just basically using all the old 2nd edition 40k rules right? Except everyone is an independent char. Been a while since a peaked at a 2nd ed codex, i'm assuming the stats are exactly the same just going off what I've read on the forums.

 

[Insurgent]

There are a lot more troop types in most cases and always more equipment options. The secret of Necromunda and 2nd ED 40K is that the points are metric. One point in 2nd ED 40K equals ten credits in Necromunda or Shadow War. It is almost exactly the same game, just scaled up. When your playing Necromunda you are essentially playing 100 point 40K games.

 

[Space Truckin]

Ok cool. That makes it super easy.

 

[Insurgent]

It make it so easy that there really is no barrier to playing any part of a 2nd Ed codex with the shadow war rules. Personally I want to see some Exodite Dragon Knights, Eldar Corsairs, and Ork Freebooters. The equipment options on any one of these troop types was better than what most SWA Kill Team have available to them. And they pulled most of this off in paragraph of text; Ahh...I miss 2nd edition.

 

[Ben_S]

Of course some factions would need to be built from scratch but SWA has even provided a skeleton for these factions to start. I foresee no lack of gusto for a creative project like this. These factions include.
~Necrons

If you want to include all the various Necron 'toys' then you'd have to do most of it from scratch. But the early Necrons did get 2nd edition rules. This means you'd have the choice between trying to translate 7th/8th edition rules and points costs over or starting from the 2nd edition rules. They were very powerful back then too, but something like SW:A would be ideal for recreating the small raiding party type games they originally figured in.

The secret of Necromunda and 2nd ED 40K is that the points are metric. One point in 2nd ED 40K equals ten credits in Necromunda or Shadow War. It is almost exactly the same game, just scaled up. When your playing Necromunda you are essentially playing 100 point 40K games.

Although Gorkamorka didn't even bother scaling up so, effectively, 1 toof = 1 point.

Do remember though that, if you're going off 2nd edition points, a standard space marine was 30 points back then. It seems a lot of things have gradually got cheaper over the years, so people have to buy more for their 40k games.

 

[Insurgent]

Do remember though that, if you're going off 2nd edition points, a standard space marine was 30 points back then. It seems a lot of things have gradually got cheaper over the years, so people have to buy more for their 40k games.

This is the "MO" of all evil gaming companies. Modifying tabletop rules to increase sales is the height of consumer abuse. The only time I actually saw this work was with 5th edition Warhammer. Point costs on everything dropped about 1/3 but the game play improved dramatically. I think this was a needed transition from "Hero Hammer" to the "Golden Age" of Fantasy Battle. It really reflected a transition away from lead special characters where GW's sales were based during "Hero Hammer", to a better plastic box set that came out during 5th edition. It was a great era, 20 dudes for 20 dollars. You never saw prices that good again and 5th edition Fantasy functioned beautifully.

If you look at that Chaos Space Marine at the back of the Necromunda Book he does cost 300 points. He is of course immune to pinning, ignores ammo rolls, and has frag grenades. Even so we used him as the basis for all Space Marines we fought in Necromunda and three marines were a match for most gangs. Some people even fought Terminators but always with the condition that you could place Melta-bombs on his back.

 

[Ben_S]

Yes, indeed, the CSM is 300 and the Genestealer 280 (another that was very different with 2nd edition stats!). I wasn't meaning to disagree with you, only offer a note of caution that the 10x points cost thing is based on 2nd edition points costs, which were very different from more recent 40k (where a space marine is what? About 14-15 points?)

The 2nd edition Necron Warriors were something like 44-45 points I believe, with Toughness 5 and 2+ saves...

 

[Insurgent]

No static my friend, I feel ya. There are some discrepancies indeed. Every single part of 40K I liked better in 2nd edition. The rules, the fluff, the options, the point balance. But if you take the SWA Chaos Space Marine and give him all the equipment Necromunda template had, he totals 210. The four other difference on the Necromunda template are two skills (True Grit and Rapid Fire: Boltgun. 20 points each), Never Pinned, and finally auto pass on all ammo rolls. It is a 90 point discrepancy between the two versions but I feel like it is more than filled in by the skills and extra abilities they supplemented in Necromunda.

Orks and Genestealers also had the "never pinned" rule and I feel like this created a necessary division between military forces and irregular gangs. They have dispensed with this principle in SWA and now subject just about everyone to pinning. But now these are all military forces actively skirmishing against each other in open warfare. It isn't a Marine or Ork bossing around some gangers, it is a real fight between equals.

 

[Space Truckin]

So I went digging up my old books. Turns out I don't have 2nd ed nid codex . Just a 3rd ed. So I went digging around the interwebs and found some info. Not sure if it's correct but from what I found I do see some differences. So out of curiosity I thought I'd see where the stats came from.

Only thing I can think of is if the 2nd ed info I have is for a Warrior Prime and even if there was such a thing back then.

Nid Warriors

m ws bs s t w i a ld​

SWA: 5 5 3 4 4 3 4 3 10
2nd ed: 6 6 4 5 5 2 5 3 10
3rd ed: _ 5 3 5 4 2 5 2 10
5th ed _ 5 3 4 4 3 4 3 10

But Chaos Marines are the same, stopped comparing things after that.
Points wise looks like my Carnifex idea would be around a 2000pt SWA game.

 

[Insurgent]

Nid Warriors
m ws bs s t w i a ldSWA: 5 5 3 4 4 3 4 3 10
2nd ed: 6 6 4 5 5 2 5 3 10
3rd ed: _ 5 3 5 4 2 5 2 10
5th ed _ 5 3 4 4 3 4 3 10

Christ! you're right that is a huge difference. Especially the two 5's on Strength and Toughness in 2nd Edition.
I had to face three Tyranid Warriors in SWA yesterday. The only bright side is you only have to take out one for the bottle tests to start. I got lucky.

 

[Space Truckin]

Yeah so the 2nd ed stats do match up with the Alpha Prime operative. Hmm....
Would a comparison of other units be helpful? Or maybe just pick 2nd ed and just go with it? It's all just for fun anyways.

 

[Space Truckin]

So I'm back to thinking about this. Mainly incorporating bikes and jet bikes but maybe borrowing vehicle movement rules from gangs of commorragh. would be a great mini expansion if GW would do it. bumping this for my something to do during insomnia list.

 

[Insurgent]

I think the concept holds a lot of water. If we can limit the scale of 2nd edition rules to Necromunda or Gorkamorka size it feels like you avoid a lot of kinks in the system. The biggest reason they transferred to 3rd edtion type rules was because it made bigger battles faster. They were just shooting for high model count and profit, not good gameplay or customization. There is no reason you can't have a lot of variety in a 2nd edition system, it is built for that. I just wish SWA reflected this. Its up to us to make it a stepping stone and expand the system to the full codex range.

Maybe we should just focus on two 2nd edition codex and see how it works out. My vote is for Eldar (because its like 5 factions rolled into one) and Guard. How many 2nd edition codex were there?

 

[Space Truckin]

Ah both armies I have no minis for! Maybe I can work on guard since i have a ton of cultists.
Thinking limit it to a few units like bikes / jetbikes and maybe smaller transports and maybe some small walkers.
Make the points cost for these pretty high and keep the vehicle movement the same.

Could be a fun thematic game trying to ambush a Chimera or a bunch of jetbikes running down some infantry.

 

[Space Truckin]

Assassins, Nyds, Orks, Eldar, Chaos, Guard, SoBs, Angels of Death, Ultras and Wolves.
But then there was also some books that were like chapter approved or something had a bunch of different army lists in it.

 

[Insurgent]

I'll work on Eldar. Which ones do you have access to? Pick your baby and see if you can build a respectable Shadow War army codex. I think we should build the list around the foundation of the current Kill Teams. If you want to recruit from the larger army codex then you have to blow promethiums to initially recruit new troop types. Shall we say you need to spend a prometheum for every 100 points a troop type costs?

 

[Space Truckin]

I have Guard, Sisters, Ultramarines and I think I have Angels of death somewhere.

Guard will be cool, adding rough riders!
Agree start with current SWA lists as a base. Maybe nail down some terminology.
SWA list can add a Special Operative and / or units from the whatever we call this army codex list. Just so we can keep things straight between Specialists, Special Operatives and 2nd ed bigger units.
Either way should be crazy expensive.

Also liked the way FW handled lords of war couldn't be over 25% of the army list restrictions. Some things to think about. I'll start with guard but this is gonna be a slow burn project for me for sure.

 

[Insurgent]

Maybe in the spirit of balance we should say you always need to blow promethium every time you recruit troop types from the army codex list.

 

[Space Truckin]

Agreed! Just flipping through the 2nd ed rulebook just now. Going to refresh my memory on vehicles rules for 2nd.